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Old 11-13-2006, 01:31 PM   #1
metoo
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Default How much more with 100% alky vs 50/50

I have asked this before, and the thread went to crud, so I will be more clear.

Scenerio:
STi with .82/GT30R and a gallon of 50/50 water and denatured alcohol. The tuner is near done with the tune because at this point increasing boost/pulling more fuel/advancing timing isn't really increasing performance, only increasing the chance of knock. The customer wants more power, so he empties out the alky/water mix and fills the tank with 100% denatured alcohol. The tuner goes back to work and finds that he can tweak the numbers and get more out of the car.

So the question is, how much of a difference was made? If you have had a tune on both mix and pure, what was the increase? I will be going in for a tune soon and I'm trying to get a feel whether it is worth the extra $6 per 2 tanks of gas to go with 100% denatured.
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Old 11-13-2006, 02:38 PM   #2
flycaster
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You'll proabably get more information if you open this up to include methanol - very few guys are running denatured alcohol. Just a thought.
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Old 11-13-2006, 03:20 PM   #3
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Don't know if you saw this thread on 50/50 vs 100%:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1028393
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Old 11-19-2006, 10:40 PM   #4
metoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klattery View Post
Don't know if you saw this thread on 50/50 vs 100%:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1028393
Nope, I didn't see that one til now. Thanks for pointing it our, but most of the thread is about airplane enigines from back-in-the-day and arguements about which plugs should be used.
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:05 PM   #5
Uncle Scotty
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....all ya really did was increase the octane that the engine is seeing
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:48 PM   #6
DonkeyPunch
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Here are some thoughts...

I remember when I was using denatured when I first went to water injection, and it was $11 a gallon can at home depot. You could probably get it a little cheaper in bulk. Meth I can get $30 for a five gallon can at my local race gas store. You may not have a local race gas store, but there are links online for meth and race gas sold online. They are actually in my FAQ. Now is the gain worth the price you pay for more meth/alky per tank of gas? I hope to give you some thoughts on that below.

Now the gain given is going to be mostly an octane gain because you will be able to increase timing, boost, and cut fuel. You will still get the octane increasing effects of alky, and still get cooling from the alky also. It does cool also as it burns and evaporates out of the cylinder, just like the water just evaporates and takes heat with it.

You are going to need to tune it very well, so the car is not to rich that you get into a bore wash situation. That can be as bad as being to lean. Make sure you can pull enough fuel. Also, make sure you are running a good safeguard system in the car. With the corresponding tune on 100% meth or alky, you are going to be real lean on boost as far as fuel is concerned. Make sure you have a boost cut or something that will kill timing and boost if something should happen while running this tune.

The other thing is to search around here, and other forums and the internet, and see about others who have gone pure alky or meth. Even the SRT forums, the Grand National forums, or any other turbo performance car website where this has been tried. See what there gains were, or if it was worth it. Well, I have given some thoughts I hope. I suppose you won't know until you try, and if you do and things go good or bad, post what happens. Let the next guy who wants to do this have some more knowledge when he tries it. Good Luck. Post Dyno results also. Before and after.

DP
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Old 11-20-2006, 07:24 AM   #7
xdrian
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just read the FAQ, according to what i read with 50/50 you are at or around 108 octane. With 100% alcohol you are at or around 110 octane. So 100% would be more effective in preventing detonation.
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Old 11-20-2006, 09:47 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xdrian View Post
just read the FAQ, according to what i read with 50/50 you are at or around 108 octane. With 100% alcohol you are at or around 110 octane. So 100% would be more effective in preventing detonation.
Yes, increasing alky/meth % is going to increase octane, it is the tuning for it that makes the difference, when the car is on the juice, and when it is off of the juice. With more alky, you need less fuel, so you have to make the tune work well in all areas of the RPM range, and boost/vac. range.
I will look around a little more for guys doing this, and see what I can find.\

DP
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Old 11-20-2006, 09:57 AM   #9
DonkeyPunch
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Here is a injection calculator, it is at the bottom of the page, I think the AFR it spits out is without any tuning. I threw in some #'s for what you looking to attain, but didn't know your nozzle size. It gave me like an 8:1 AFR. Give it a try and see if you can work something out.

DP

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
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