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Old 11-16-2006, 04:22 PM   #1
DieselClown
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Default XPT stage 2: who's running it?

I was about to drop my money on the Cobb AP v.2, but after reading all about opensource EM, it's really swayed me to do it myself with the tatrix cable and learn how to tune on my own. Now of course I'm not going to start tuning myown car until I've read till my eyes bleed, but how safe is the XPT stage 2 map really? From what I understand, as long as I have the ability to reflash the stock ROM back onto my car, I should really have no problem with it. I have a turboxs catted stealthback, STi uppipe, silincer delete, and the IC hoses (which is pretty close to the stage 2 supporting mods from the XPT website). People there are saying that the XPT map pulls stronger and holds boost longer than the Cobb stage 2. Does anybody here currently run this and can vouch for that? Is this really as safe as it all sounds (as far as I don't being tweeking with the maps myself)? Please help. Thanks!
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:56 PM   #2
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Well, I'm not running the "Extreme" maps, but I have been messing with some of ev8siv's base maps on openECU. There were a few things that looked a bit odd to me in the openECU maps with respect to surface continuity (i.e. some of the cal surfaces had some "steps" that I didn't like). This could potentially effect the overall smoothness, but he states that the "Extreme" maps are smoother and more refined and most running them state that they're smoother than Cobb anyway. Also, I'm leaning my cal a bit more towards fuel economy than most, so I give up some part-throttle boost and turbo response to pick up some FE. FWIW, even with the off-the-shelf openECU stage1, I didn't have any particular complaints -- it drove OK, I just didn't like the way the cal looked. (I do OEM ECU tuning/development, so I get a bit picky on this stuff)

Overall, however, I haven't seen him do anything or post anything that seems out in left field from a tuning perspective, so I trust his overall tuning knowledge. In the end, it comes down to how much time was spent on that particular tune, and what his "limit" parameters/philosophy are (what temperature limits was the cal tuned to, what fuel, what did he use to determine knock, etc.). This would be no different than any other professional tuner though (I doubt most tuners would be willing to give up the info, but I'd love to have a list for comparison's sake). At the end of the day, there seem to be plenty of people that are pretty happy with his cals and assuming that he's shipping a HEX file that you can edit afterwards to tweak to your particular needs, it seems like a very cost-effective starting point. Plan on having to take some logs and potentially "tweaking" things to suit your car.

As far as "safe" goes, the only things you REALLY need to worry about would be too high exh temps, and knock. I think the only other issues could be boost fluctuations, surge, or other drive issues that shouldn't hurt your car (I'm not saying that any of these problems exist with those maps, just listing potential points of concern) The biggest concern for me would be keeping an eye on EGT since the ECU does a decent job of controlling knock (or at least you can look for it with logs).

I say go for it (and let me know how it works out so I know if I want to start with his Extreme maps when I get all my gear together )
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Old 11-17-2006, 08:42 AM   #3
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I'm also interested in this XPT map. I use my car mostly for track events and occasionally weekend drives. The Cobb Stg 2 that I'm using is still running extremely high EGT's during some events 1600-1650 F. I was told by Christian @ Cobb that my AFR should be around low to mid 10.x/1 towards redline. My properly calibrated LC-1 is showing 11.2/1
So, if anybody has some experience with the XPT Stg 2 map I would also like to hear about it. Thanks
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Old 11-17-2006, 09:38 AM   #4
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I just flashed to the XPT stage 2 w/ GM solenoid option.Car runs like a raped ape!Hitting 15- 15.5 psi in first gear and 17.5- 18psi 2nd-5th!Car runs much,much smoother.Haven't had a change to log it.Their stage 2 map calls for up-pipe,high flow panel filter,TBE and snorkus delete.
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Old 11-17-2006, 09:38 AM   #5
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Do you have an intake or any non cobb stage 2 approved parts on the car? That could be why your afrs aren't matching up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Arm View Post
I'm also interested in this XPT map. I use my car mostly for track events and occasionally weekend drives. The Cobb Stg 2 that I'm using is still running extremely high EGT's during some events 1600-1650 F. I was told by Christian @ Cobb that my AFR should be around low to mid 10.x/1 towards redline. My properly calibrated LC-1 is showing 11.2/1
So, if anybody has some experience with the XPT Stg 2 map I would also like to hear about it. Thanks
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:30 AM   #6
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I highly recomend his maps. I've used almost all of them on mine and my friends cars. They make great power, run smooth and have always been withing safe limits for afr and egt.
As far as knock goes, I really cant say cause their set up for 91 and we have 93 out here. So it really isn't an issue. But I havn't heard any negative reports about it unless there is something else wrong with the car or their setup is out of wack with what it was tuned for.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:47 AM   #7
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I've been tuning ev8siv3's regular stage 2 map for my own car and even this map runs better than Cobb's Stage 2 OTS map. My car seem to be doing very well right with raised timing so looks like I was leaving power on the table with Cobb maps. My EGT gauge is on order so I can report my EGTs once that is in. I raised my timing and I see great timing on 93 oct. The only problem I am having is with hitting my target boost but it might be specific to my car. I am about 1PSI off. OpenECU is the way to go. You learn a ton and you have a satisfaction of really getting a customized tune for your car. Can't beat that.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMessick View Post
...
In the end, it comes down to how much time was spent on that particular tune, and what his "limit" parameters/philosophy are (what temperature limits was the cal tuned to, what fuel, what did he use to determine knock, etc.). This would be no different than any other professional tuner though (I doubt most tuners would be willing to give up the info, but I'd love to have a list for comparison's sake).
...
I say go for it (and let me know how it works out so I know if I want to start with his Extreme maps when I get all my gear together )
The author of those tunes is a professional tuner only in the sense that he charges money. He has no education or training that would qualify him for a job as a tuner. His tunes were developed in warm sunny SoCal by driving around on public streets and relied exclusively on the knock detection provided by the Subaru ECU. No money was wasted on dyno time or specialized knock detection equipment. He has no idea of what will happen when his tunes are used at altitude in Denver during the winter or in Phoenix during the summer.
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:14 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama
I've been tuning ev8siv3's regular stage 2 map for my own car and even this map runs better than Cobb's Stage 2 OTS map. My car seem to be doing very well right with raised timing so looks like I was leaving power on the table with Cobb maps. My EGT gauge is on order so I can report my EGTs once that is in. I raised my timing and I see great timing on 93 oct. The only problem I am having is with hitting my target boost but it might be specific to my car. I am about 1PSI off. OpenECU is the way to go. You learn a ton and you have a satisfaction of really getting a customized tune for your car. Can't beat that.
I have been also running ev8siv3's regular Stage 2 map, much happier with it than the Cobb. I have reflashed 3 cars with his stage 2 map and all of them had no knock and lots of positive KC. 2 other cars have gotten Stage 1 maps and only the second car had problems with alittle bit of knocking (the owner later told me that his fuel pump was making noise). I put him back on the stock map and told him he needs to get that fixed though.

The only car I've been really changing maps on is my g/fs 04 WRX. Much happier with my own modified tune, I got it exiting closed loop at 2900 rpms and adjusted boost to come on much quicker. Also leaned out to a AFR of 15.3 during closed loop to stretch out the mileage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT
]The author of those tunes is a professional tuner only in the sense that he charges money. He has no education or training that would qualify him for a job as a tuner. His tunes were developed in warm sunny SoCal by driving around on public streets and relied exclusively on the knock detection provided by the Subaru ECU. No money was wasted on dyno time or specialized knock detection equipment. He has no idea of what will happen when his tunes are used at altitude in Denver during the winter or in Phoenix during the summer.
That is true, but I thought the XPT maps were tuned on a dyno? I'll have to recheck my information.
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:24 AM   #10
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I went from AP St2 to the osecuroms.org St2 to the XPT St2 in one day. The osecuroms.org St2 ran fine and logged fine but it didn't "feel" like the AP St2. I tried the XPT St2 and have now been running it for 3wks.

Overall it is smoother and pulls better than the AP St2. Logs look great. Part-throttle is really nice. I still datalog after every fillup to make sure things are straight, especially w/the weather cooling off. So far, so good.
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fathead View Post
I went from AP St2 to the osecuroms.org St2 to the XPT St2 in one day. The osecuroms.org St2 ran fine and logged fine but it didn't "feel" like the AP St2. I tried the XPT St2 and have now been running it for 3wks.

Overall it is smoother and pulls better than the AP St2. Logs look great. Part-throttle is really nice. I still datalog after every fillup to make sure things are straight, especially w/the weather cooling off. So far, so good.
thanks for the info! question- when I buy the map from xpt, is there a program that I need to have to run the map or is it just plug and play? How do I datalog?
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:38 AM   #12
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Im looking into this also for my STi... id like to go XPT Stage 1 fairly soon.

I already have a friend using Enginuity and im going to start learning some from him about tuning myself.
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DieselClown View Post
thanks for the info! question- when I buy the map from xpt, is there a program that I need to have to run the map or is it just plug and play? How do I datalog?
I used ecuflash to flash it. Based on your questions, my personal recommendation is that you back up, start w/logging first to get comfortable logging and looking at maps, then consider flashing. Here is a good writeup on the whole ball o' wax:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1102607
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Old 11-17-2006, 12:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT] View Post
The author of those tunes is a professional tuner only in the sense that he charges money. He has no education or training that would qualify him for a job as a tuner. His tunes were developed in warm sunny SoCal by driving around on public streets and relied exclusively on the knock detection provided by the Subaru ECU. No money was wasted on dyno time or specialized knock detection equipment. He has no idea of what will happen when his tunes are used at altitude in Denver during the winter or in Phoenix during the summer.
I'm suprised you don't post how you feel about his maps in the Enginuity forums where his maps are advertised as well.Doesn't qoncept uses his maps?
http://www.enginuity.org/viewtopic.php?t=876
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Old 11-17-2006, 01:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT] View Post
The author of those tunes is a professional tuner only in the sense that he charges money. He has no education or training that would qualify him for a job as a tuner. His tunes were developed in warm sunny SoCal by driving around on public streets and relied exclusively on the knock detection provided by the Subaru ECU. No money was wasted on dyno time or specialized knock detection equipment. He has no idea of what will happen when his tunes are used at altitude in Denver during the winter or in Phoenix during the summer.
I am curious how you know this. Did you ask him about it? I'm not raising controversy here however I'd like to know where you're getting your info from. I believe ev8siv3 did tune with WB O2, EGT gauge and probably knock lite which is more than plenty to tune a stock Subaru ECU. Given the adaptive nature of the ECU, you have to try to do damage to get this stuff wrong. Also, fundamental knowledge goes a long way. Knowing basics and applying them to tune a car isn't that hard. There's enough resident knowledge between openecu.org, enginuity.org and osecuroms.org that one given enough time and willingnes to learn can do pretty well for himself. I've only been in this game for a few weeks and already I know enough to tune my own car to the conditions that it sees everyday. This really isn't that hard and trust me, me no that smart

Knowing what I know now, I am really curious about the quality of tunes that people are receiving at 'professional' tuners. Do they have training? Yes. But that is onyl as good as the tuner that is able to apply the training to the conditions presented by a given car. To get it right, you really have to put in the time, observe the car in various conditions and make controlled adjustments. That takes time and patience. I am not sure how much of that can be accomplished on a dyno within couple of hours. Maybe a lot, maybe just a sample of all given conditions. Road tuning is valuable. Given that a large number of people tried this map already and presented valid logs with good results, these maps are relatively safe.

Oh, and as a side note, who trained Cobb when they first started?
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Old 11-17-2006, 01:49 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Fathead View Post
I used ecuflash to flash it. Based on your questions, my personal recommendation is that you back up, start w/logging first to get comfortable logging and looking at maps, then consider flashing. Here is a good writeup on the whole ball o' wax:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1102607
thanks for that link man! I got something to do now for the rest of the day at work!
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:22 PM   #17
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Zumble,

Nope just the stuff that's listed as part of the stg 2 for the XPT map.
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Old 11-18-2006, 07:24 AM   #18
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my 2c
if someone worked hard to get someone else a map I have no problem paying for it but if i were to pay for it i would like to know in detail what i am paying for and must be better than what i can do myself.

Im quite sure the XPT is an improvement from a few that have mentioned it. but until i get a WB02 i wont be uploading any maps onto my ECU.

My criteria is safe first then fast
if you have it reverse then by all means upload and try everyhing you can find online or get a MBC
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Old 11-18-2006, 07:55 AM   #19
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^^^ That's fair. I would get an EGT sensor over WBO2. High EGTs is really what will kill your motor. WBO2 just lets you know if you're heading in that direction. Unless you have one already. In that case, you're good to go
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Old 11-18-2006, 08:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
^^^ That's fair. I would get an EGT sensor over WBO2. High EGTs is really what will kill your motor. WBO2 just lets you know if you're heading in that direction. Unless you have one already. In that case, you're good to go
Thanks Ziggy
I already have an EGT and Boost
Just waiting when the Enginuity / EcuExplorer can have an input for the WB02 and Ill be heading that way.

It would be nice if i can integrate my (future) LC1 to my stock line to ecu so i dont have to drill a new bung for the WB. Any suggestions / links
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Old 11-19-2006, 08:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT] View Post
The author of those tunes is a professional tuner only in the sense that he charges money. He has no education or training that would qualify him for a job as a tuner. His tunes were developed in warm sunny SoCal by driving around on public streets and relied exclusively on the knock detection provided by the Subaru ECU. No money was wasted on dyno time or specialized knock detection equipment. He has no idea of what will happen when his tunes are used at altitude in Denver during the winter or in Phoenix during the summer.

hatehatehatehatehate. Seriously i ve only been on that site for a week but he seems to always be availible for questions and ive read where he's told people to send him thier datalogs and was willing to make changes/ help out. all 3 of those sites have peopel more then willing to help. Ill be using the xpt stage2 map as soon as my tactrix cable and gm solenoid stip sometime next week. im currently running a stage2 txs unichip,which is awesome compaired to stock, but id like the ability to tune as i drive whenever im driving. first i plan on log the unichip first then the XPT just for compairisons sake. its all still new to me, but doesnt appear too hard. for everyone that is going opensource via explorer or whatever good luck and lets stop sending our money to cobb,lol. tatrax cable what under 100, openuce/ecuexplorer free base maps 25 to 50 bucks or free, the ability to tune ur own ****= PRICELESS!
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Old 11-19-2006, 12:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT] View Post
The author of those tunes is a professional tuner only in the sense that he charges money. He has no education or training that would qualify him for a job as a tuner. His tunes were developed in warm sunny SoCal by driving around on public streets and relied exclusively on the knock detection provided by the Subaru ECU. No money was wasted on dyno time or specialized knock detection equipment.

You sir are a tool and have no idea what you are talking about.
These maps were base tuned on the street (which is the only proper way to tune part throttle) and then run on a dyno to be readjusted again to see where there was any more power to be had. Then readjusted again on the road.
All these maps were tuned with a wideband and have been proven knock free by all who use them.
Quote:
He has no idea of what will happen when his tunes are used at altitude in Denver during the winter or in Phoenix during the summer.

Neither does just about anyone who has had their car tuned and then moves to a different region. And he has said if you are having an issue with his map. Take logs and he will adjust it for you. Does cobb do that? If you’re tuned at you local dyno and move somewhere else and are having knock or fueling issues will the original tuner send you a new readjusted map?
Please do not make a post talking about someone you know nothing about. You are slandering his name with false information.
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Old 11-20-2006, 11:44 AM   #23
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as a side note, most "tuners" aren't qualified either. It's about experience.
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Old 11-20-2006, 11:11 PM   #24
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I just got the map. Waiting for the tatrix cable, then I;m going to knock out the uppipe and downpipe and upload the map. Can't wait!
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Old 11-22-2006, 02:50 AM   #25
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uhhh i have this map on my 02. and its golden. i love it. power is great .
its safe too. so i recommend it to anyone looking for a great stage 2 map.
plus the guy who makes them is awesome and helps out a lot.
all u do is load it up and drive......faster lol
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