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Old 11-22-2006, 05:01 PM   #1
benw
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Default Perrin (Aquamist) Water Injection

Perrin's 2007 catalog was being distributed at SEMA and there is a new product which caught my eye. They have a water injection kit that looks VERY nice. Looks to be a rebadged Aquamist kit. The catalog says all you will need to supply is your own bucket of water and a container to store it inside the car.

Anyone got more info on this thing? Pricing? Availability?
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Old 11-22-2006, 05:44 PM   #2
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They are close to $300. They are really not hard to get a hold of at all. These are really nice. Make sure what you get is a dual stage injection kit. Tip for the container just use your windshield wiper fluid bottle. either use the wiper fluid as injection ONLY if it is a winter mixture. 50% Meth, 48% water, and 2% blue dye. Otherwise just use buy some meth and mix with water as needed.
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Old 11-22-2006, 07:59 PM   #3
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check aquamist.uk.co
they have dealers list in there
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Old 11-23-2006, 05:27 PM   #4
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I had a Perrin kit in my hands and was going to be the "beta" tester. Unfortunately do to manufacturing time constraints the unit I was going to test had to be the one to go to SEMA. I can say that it's a very nice kit, very well thought out and high quality. I plan on buying one once they are readily available. I need to call Jeff I guess and see when that will be, they may already be around.
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Old 11-23-2006, 05:27 PM   #5
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Oh and it is made by Aquamist.
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Old 11-23-2006, 07:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superblkwrx View Post
They are close to $300. They are really not hard to get a hold of at all. These are really nice. Make sure what you get is a dual stage injection kit. Tip for the container just use your windshield wiper fluid bottle. either use the wiper fluid as injection ONLY if it is a winter mixture. 50% Meth, 48% water, and 2% blue dye. Otherwise just use buy some meth and mix with water as needed.
Aquamist is not Coolingmist

http://www.aquamist.co.uk (been around for ages, engineered solutions based on many pieces of custom-made hardware, used in WRC cars, airplanes, etc...)

http://www.coolingmist.com
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Old 11-23-2006, 09:46 PM   #7
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They are close to $300. .
good price - subscribe.
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Old 11-24-2006, 12:38 AM   #8
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the msrp for their injection system is $749 according to the price list that i got from the Perrin booth at SEMA. the system isnt made by Aquamist, it is made by Perrin and was developed in conjunction with Aquamist. The Perrin system is supposed to be better than the Aquamist and considerably cheaper.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:42 PM   #9
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I believe the PWI-1 information is already on Perrin's newly done slick website.
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Old 11-25-2006, 11:36 AM   #10
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cool! at the time I posted, the new web site was not live.

I absolutely love the Aquamist products. Hopefully Perrin's product will deliver Aquamist quality with Perrin price. That would be a nice thing.
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:25 AM   #11
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MSRP is $750
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Old 11-26-2006, 09:49 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benw View Post
...I absolutely love the Aquamist products. Hopefully Perrin's product will deliver Aquamist quality with Perrin price. That would be a nice thing.
Looks like it does.....
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Old 11-26-2006, 04:49 PM   #13
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Info I have found on the Perrin WI setup (make sure to check out the "Features" and "Included" tabs also on this page):

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...=18&category=3


Okay, so comparing pictures:

This setup appears to have the DDS3 flow sensor. The product literature says that it compares the actual flow rate from the flow sensor with the calculated flow rate. If there is a problem, it throws up a red flag. Compare the pictures from Perrin's website to the install pictures of an EVO guys Aquamist 2d/DDS3. Same sensor! This probably means that a DDS3 gauge upgrade for this unit would be cheaper by about $100 or so (because you won't need the extra flow sensor hopefully!). Although with the included controller doing flow comparisons and the remote control feedback from the Perrin setup the DDS3 gauge will really just be a toy and not a necessity like it is with the current systems.

http://www.perrinperformance.com/sha.../143_large.jpg

http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=173854
http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/att...chmentid=80171


Also, this setup comes with the much-anticipated bracket that Richard has been posting pictures of. It also comes with a fluid level switch for the supply tank. Those are both a huge bonus. The Perrin website also states that the pump comes with Teflon seals, but I think Richard has said in the past that the most recent systems already have the Teflon seals.

From the best I can tell, it has the traditional AquaMist 2d Pump + High-Speed Valve setup. The output of the AquaMist pump looks like it is connected to the input of the water pressure switch (the pressure switch appears to have a purple rubber cap over the top of it), and then the output of the pressure switch goes to the input of the DDS3-style flow sensor. The output of the flow sensor would then connect to the HSV which would then output to the injection nozzle itself. The odd part though is that I can't identify the HSV in the Perrin picture of the whole setup? Bueller?

http://www.perrinperformance.com/sha.../141_large.jpg

The Perrin controller has pots for setting "when the injection starts, pump gain, and a trim pot for setting up the nozzles flow rate.".

We can assume that "When the injection starts" means either that the controller only starts based on the Injector Duty Cycle, or that it starts based on an included MAP sensor. This is still a mystery to me right now. I would think that having it only start based on IDC would make the system a real pain to tune for (never would know exactly when it is going to start spraying?) I would assume that the system has a pressure switch like all of the others in order to kick the system on based on a certain boost pressure. "This main harness is used to connect the system to the vehicles battery, and other sensors." Perhaps this is where the system hooks into a MAP sensor of some sort?

The "pump gain" and "trim pot for nozzle flow rate" are also a mystery. I assume that the trim pot for nozzle flow rate means that you set it so that the feedback from the flow meter matches the expected output when the system is operating normally. Then the controller can tell when the flow feedback doesn't match the calculated output. Pump gain is a real mystery - maybe this is the pressure setting for the pump (3 bar, 5 bar, 7 bar, etc?)

It looks like all a person really needs to go along with this kit is a relay to drop the power to the wastegate solenoid for boost protection and a reservoir to install the level sensor and supply fittings into. I think a 50/50 mix of meth/water in the stock tank with the WI system drawing from there would be great dual-purpose setup in most cars. You can leave the stock pump hooked up to throw fluid on the windscreen so you don't lose that functionality.


SO, in conclusion:

The only two questions I *really* need answered is if the Perrin system does in fact use a High-Speed Valve setup like the Aquamist 2d system and if it is activated based on a boost pressure sensor. I would though also like to see the user's manual for this system. If anyone gets ahold of a copy of the user's manual, PLEASE post it in this thread!!!

Last edited by epoth; 11-26-2006 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:49 PM   #14
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Well, I called Perrin today and got the answers straight from the horse's mouth.

I should first point out that the system does come with some nice features (flow meter, in-cockpit controller, level sensor, wiring harness, etc).

On the other hand, this system is actually a bit different than the 2d Aquamist setup. The Perrin PWI-1 does *not* use the High-Speed Valve from the 2d system. Instead it actually varies the duty cycle of the pump to vary the output of the system. It is anyone's guess as to how well this setup will work compared to the pump/HSV setup.

The system also does *not* use a manifold pressure switch to initiate the water injection process. Instead it initiates based on the Injector Duty Cycle. I'm going to leave it to more knowledgeable people than I to decide how that fact alone will affect the ease of tuning for the transition from injecting/not injecting.
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Old 11-27-2006, 03:02 PM   #15
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I noticed b4 in the pictures that there was no hsv. Imo this is a good step in keeping the price down, and with all the safety devices the kit comes with, it really seems like a great deal. Imo an injection system in no way needs the kind of control the hsv gives, and if aquamist came out with a system that uses something else to control flow, chances are it will work more then well enough. My gripe about most pump control systems isn't so much that the pump controls the flow, but that the controller uses boost pressure to determine how much flow their should be. This kit seems like it uses the fia2 which tracks idc's, and imo this is a much better way to determine how much an injection system should put out.

A boost switch should be able to be added to any system and costs less then $20(not sure, richard back me up?). Course people with utecs and hydra should be able to turn the systems on when they want(at a given boost, rpm, or whatever).....

peace
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Old 11-27-2006, 06:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epoth View Post
.
.
.
On the other hand, this system is actually a bit different than the 2d Aquamist setup. The Perrin PWI-1 does *not* use the High-Speed Valve from the 2d system. Instead it actually varies the duty cycle of the pump to vary the output of the system. It is anyone's guess as to how well this setup will work compared to the pump/HSV setup.

The system also does *not* use a manifold pressure switch to initiate the water injection process. Instead it initiates based on the Injector Duty Cycle. I'm going to leave it to more knowledgeable people than I to decide how that fact alone will affect the ease of tuning for the transition from injecting/not injecting.

Your ability to relate fragments of information is exceptional.

It is true that HSV has been omitted due to cost. We have tried for number of years to find a stainless material that has high corrosion resistance and good maganetic properties, but failed. The HSV will remain to be an expensive item - doesn't help us at all to complete against other pump speed based systems.

Perrin has identified a gap in the Aquamist systems, somewhere between a 1s and 2d. They urged us to look into creating a system that has all round performance without a high price tag. So the Perrin PWI-1 system was born. A year's work but we believe it will satisfy most demanding WIA users.

We have ruled out the pump with large motors due to its inability to track rapid change fuel duty cycles, so modulating the Aquamist piston pump is an ideal solution. Almost instant pressure build up, only takes 10ms to change flowrate (0-100%). As each pulse produces full pressure, there is less atomisation problem at low duty cycle.

Flowrate and duty cycle signal is closely tracked by the turbine flow sensor full time. Failsafe is inbuilt naturally.

Tracking the FIDC is good way to supplimenting and enhance the performance of normal pump fuel, that is the sole aim of this system. Inlet/incylinder cooling come free as a bonus.

It may not have the accuracy of the HSV nor can it be controlled by a third party EMS, it is 100% stand-alone system. I think at the price tag Perrin is asking, it will earn itself into a small niche in the market place.
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy View Post
I noticed b4 in the pictures that there was no hsv. Imo this is a good step in keeping the price down, and with all the safety devices the kit comes with, it really seems like a great deal. Imo an injection system in no way needs the kind of control the hsv gives, and if aquamist came out with a system that uses something else to control flow, chances are it will work more then well enough. My gripe about most pump control systems isn't so much that the pump controls the flow, but that the controller uses boost pressure to determine how much flow their should be. This kit seems like it uses the fia2 which tracks idc's, and imo this is a much better way to determine how much an injection system should put out.

A boost switch should be able to be added to any system and costs less then $20(not sure, richard back me up?). Course people with utecs and hydra should be able to turn the systems on when they want(at a given boost, rpm, or whatever).....

peace
Hippy, you are right, manifold pressure switch is not supplied with the system. There are a number of places where you can splice one in and make it work just like the 2d's MPS.
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:45 PM   #18
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I happen to know of a place selling it for 669...
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:28 PM   #19
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where?
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:32 PM   #20
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Last edited by IMPORTIMAGE; 11-27-2006 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:43 PM   #21
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thanks for the explanation Richard!
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:27 PM   #22
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if it runs off IPW (Injector Pulse Width) this would be very accurate. As your ipw increases so will spray , this is a way for the pcm to still control this perrin unit indirectly. If it all works the way they say it does this would be a great way to do injection!
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:38 PM   #23
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Now all they need to do is figure out how to make the pump flow more!
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Old 11-28-2006, 04:19 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy View Post
Now all they need to do is figure out how to make the pump flow more!
There is a pairs of wire on the harness that will drive a push pump at the tank end, it is capable of supplying up to 5 amps. It mirrors the main pump.

It was originally intended to push water to the front of the engine bay if the user decided to mount the water pump in the rear. This arrangement also increase the main pump's flow rate to near 600cc/min.
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Old 11-28-2006, 04:35 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
There is a pairs of wire on the harness that will drive a push pump at the tank end, it is capable of supplying up to 5 amps. It mirrors the main pump.

It was originally intended to push water to the front of the engine bay if the user decided to mount the water pump in the rear. This arrangement also increase the main pump's flow rate to near 600cc/min.
What kind pump would be needed in the rear to run this? I was looking at getting a 5 gallon fuel cell for the trunk and wanted to run 100% meth. I also didn't like the fact of the SMC under the hood with a non-screw on cap. I'd come out many days in vegas at 110+ degrees to find all my meth had expanded, popped the cap, and was all gone.
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