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Old 12-14-2006, 04:16 PM   #26
Peeblesmx445
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Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
Easy, I just use the UTEC solenoid to trigger a relay. I have it set to turn on the 2nd pump at 10psi. The reason I use 10psi is that the UTEC also triggers my water injection primer pump at this boost level. It was easy to combine the two.

I use the UTEC spare solenoid delay feature to ensure the pump does not drop out during shifts. I have the pump stay on for 3 seconds which is easily enough time to shift.

If I was not using the UTEC spare solenoid already for the water primer pump I expect I would also setup a number of the other parameters to minimize the effect of the 2nd pump tuning on. Things like setting the boost a little higher and a min RPM for the pump enable would both have made the 2nd pump enable almost transparent.

Handy Y for connecting the 2 pumps: http://www.beveragefactory.com/draft...t/SSY-CS.shtml

I drilled a small hole in the top of the fuel pump assembly and used a industrial sealer like the one pictured in the Buschur setup above to run the wires to the second pump. Sealed fine, no smell of gas in the car.

I did not take pictures of the pump setup modification but it's just like the setup above. I hacked off the bottom of the original assembly and clamped on the two pumps with two socks.

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Turbo XS HIGHLY disaggreed with running a set-up like this. I called to get a price on a spare solenoid and ended up getting an ear full. They recommended running it off the stock FP controller and using a relay. They also didnt like the idea of using the pressure switch......Just thought I'd share what I was told. What to do...what to do
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Old 12-14-2006, 07:51 PM   #27
mick_the_ginge
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The UTEC's built in spare solenoid turns on a 40 amp relay....

TurboXs is making fun of you because you asked to buy a spare solenoid...... which is built into the UTEC........ which you already own

The stock fuel pump controller is not a simple on off switch, it is a duty cycle based setup. Having it run a relay is not a good thing.

Go look at setups like boost-a-pump, they all have pressure switch options.

I personally have not idea why TurboXS would not like this setup.

10+ track days on this setup, no issues. I've also been using the spare solenoid capability since 2002 with no issues. Sounds to me like you did not get to talk to an experienced tuner at TurboXS.
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Old 12-14-2006, 07:57 PM   #28
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I'm sure that Turbo XS doesn't want the liability of your second pump not turning on. Any manufacture would advise you away from something they haven't proven.

The set up Mick talks about has been proven time and time and time again on other cars. Look at all the single digit supras running triple walbros and switching the pumps on at X-PSI. None of them have problems. It works, if the Utec fails to switch the pumps on and the car goes lean and burns a hole through the piston, then you would probably point a finger at Turbo Xs. They don't want that to happen, so they advise against it.

If you are realy worried about it run the relay to the ignition and run both pumps all the time. Pump life probably won't be as long that way, but you'll be safe.
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:01 PM   #29
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Quote:
Mick the ginge,

I saw the post you made awhile back about your dual pumps and checked out that link to the beverage part then. No offense meant by this at all but personally I didn't like the way it was designed. It just isn't going to flow as well as it should. We are using a very high grade SS "Y" connector on our double pumpers, both for the Subaru's and EVO's. The fuel is going to try to be forced into the second pump with the fitting you are using more so than with a proper "Y" connector. We are also using an approved fuel cell wiring harness/bulk head connector. Pretty cool stuff, it's sealed with orings and special sleeve internally for the wiring. I am sure yours works, just making some observations, hope I'm not ticking you off.
First of all what I should have said is dual fuel pumps setups are great and if this setup was around when I needed it I would have purchased it for sure. I was just posting my setup and wiring experiences, no disrespect meant or taken.

The "Y" connector issue has not yet proved to be a problem but I'm only pushing the car to 460 WHP.

I 10000% agree on the wiring issue. I was worried about running wire into the fuel tank so I purchased some marine wire that is also designed to be submerged in fuel (and other liquids) I then heat shrink wrapped these in again a marine heat shrink designed for fuel tank use.

Like I said, I wish this one was around at the start of the year, would have made my life easier.
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Old 12-14-2006, 09:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
The UTEC's built in spare solenoid turns on a 40 amp relay....

TurboXs is making fun of you because you asked to buy a spare solenoid...... which is built into the UTEC........ which you already own

The stock fuel pump controller is not a simple on off switch, it is a duty cycle based setup. Having it run a relay is not a good thing.

Go look at setups like boost-a-pump, they all have pressure switch options.

I personally have not idea why TurboXS would not like this setup.

10+ track days on this setup, no issues. I've also been using the spare solenoid capability since 2002 with no issues. Sounds to me like you did not get to talk to an experienced tuner at TurboXS.
Really? I dont know what I was thinking then. So you just wire the fuel pump DIRECTLY in the UTEC wire harness?
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Old 12-15-2006, 10:39 AM   #31
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Did you see the pictures that are posted? The dual pumps mounted in the fuel tank assembly. The secondary pump wiring into the fuel cell bulk head fitting at the top, the high pressure fuel lines and clamps with the high flow Y connector to the twin pumps, the pressure switch. That's what is in the kit and makes it a kit. I didn't call it a "DIY" anything
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Old 12-15-2006, 10:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Peeblesmx445 View Post
Really? I dont know what I was thinking then. So you just wire the fuel pump DIRECTLY in the UTEC wire harness?
No. UTEC solenoid triggers a secondary 40 amp relay which controls the pump
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Old 12-15-2006, 11:28 AM   #33
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Correct, whatever you use will have to trigger a relay, other than the supplied switch which is a direct wire ordeal. The AEM EMS has to run through a relay also.
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Old 12-16-2006, 01:21 PM   #34
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haha, Awesome, David Buschur is a scooby newbie, I don't feel so bad anymore

I'm surprised you don't have vendor status here.
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Old 12-18-2006, 11:24 AM   #35
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I'm not trying to sell anything or mentioning any pricing. Just answering questions.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:49 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by SloRice View Post
With the fuse pulled for the 2nd pump so it can't run, my AFR's were in the 11.6 area through out the entire RPM band. Installed the fuse and my AFR's dropped to 11.3 throughout the entire RPM band.

So it's obviously working and showing that even at 22-23psi and pump gas, a single Walbro isn't quite up to the task of my setup. If it was, my AFR's wouldn't have changed at all.
not necessarily true, tim.

the variable in the equation is the fuel pressure regulator.

it is very likely being overrun with fuel volume when the second pump kicks on. that will artificially raise the rail pressure, and shift afrs richer.

by showing a richer afr, your experiment proved that rail pressure increased, but not necessarily WHY it was increased.

to make a determination of whether or not the pumps are overdriving the fpr or actually "filling in" the deficient flow would require logging manifold pressure and fuel rail pressure and determining if there is any deviation from the static fuel rail pressure set by the regulator.

i have to say that if you've got a bigass aftermarket fpr, then that obviously makes it much more unlikely that you were overdriving it.

jm2c
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Old 12-20-2006, 04:04 PM   #37
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I use a SARD FPR and when the 2nd pump turns on the static fuel pressure raises. For me it goes from 3.2 bar to 3.8 bar
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Old 12-20-2006, 05:25 PM   #38
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The FPR is probably NOT being overrun, at idle yes, it is quite possible but since the 2nd pump doesn't come on until 16 psi of boost the chances of it are very very slim.

The stock regulator will flow more than enough to bypass 410 lb/hr of fuel, that is proven by the fact that the car idles at 40 psi of fuel pressure and the normal 255 liter pump flows 410 lb/hr at 40 psi. The duty cycle of the injectors at 800 rpm is probably 2%, so hardly anything.

Now bump the boost up to 25 psi, add that to your 40 psi base pressure and you have 65 psi and at that rate the fuel pump flows 345 lb/hr. Also at this point your duty cycles have now went up to let's say 65%. So much of the fuel that was being bypassed at idle now doesn't have to as it is getting into the engine. The second pump coming on at 16 psi is NOT overriding the regulator

I really like the fuel stuff.
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Old 12-20-2006, 05:42 PM   #39
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^^That's what I hear. Your desk is covered in fuel pump parts.
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Old 12-20-2006, 06:49 PM   #40
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What is controlling pump speed on the secondary when boost comes on? From what I see nothing since the 1st pump is wired up to the FPC. There isnt any additional voltage going to the second pump.
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Old 12-20-2006, 07:56 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Buschur View Post
The FPR is probably NOT being overrun, at idle yes, it is quite possible but since the 2nd pump doesn't come on until 16 psi of boost the chances of it are very very slim.

The stock regulator will flow more than enough to bypass 410 lb/hr of fuel, that is proven by the fact that the car idles at 40 psi of fuel pressure and the normal 255 liter pump flows 410 lb/hr at 40 psi. The duty cycle of the injectors at 800 rpm is probably 2%, so hardly anything.
david, i am surprised that you don't know the oem fuel pump controller sets duty cycle to 33% at idle. just because the regulator doesn't get overrun by one pump at 33% dc at idle doesn't mean it's not happening when you have what amounts to 200% dc once you cross your MAP threshold.

i stand behind my assertion that if you really want to know what's happening on the rail you need to monitor it's pressure relative to manifold. that is the ONLY task of the fuel delivery system right up to the injector pintle.
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Old 12-20-2006, 07:58 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
I use a SARD FPR and when the 2nd pump turns on the static fuel pressure raises. For me it goes from 3.2 bar to 3.8 bar
that is very interesting, mick, and would indicate that even the sard is being overrun a bit by the additional flow.
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Old 12-21-2006, 06:09 AM   #43
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I thought these pumps were good for 600 whp? why would mick use 2 if hes only pushing 460whp?
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:27 AM   #44
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I love to argue with people that have tested nothing. It really makes my entire day. Can't wait for 4 days off for Christmas.

The duty cycle on the pump is set to 33%? That is a retarded statement. Do you mean the voltage is dropped at idle and then bumped up? I believe that is what you meant to say.
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:37 AM   #45
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I thought these pumps were good for 600 whp? why would mick use 2 if hes only pushing 460whp?
My dual setup was made using the standard walbro upgraded pumps. A single was leaving me lean on the track. I wish this setup had been around when I needed it.

I always like to over engineer.
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Old 12-22-2006, 01:14 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by David Buschur View Post
I love to argue with people that have tested nothing. It really makes my entire day. Can't wait for 4 days off for Christmas.

The duty cycle on the pump is set to 33%? That is a retarded statement. Do you mean the voltage is dropped at idle and then bumped up? I believe that is what you meant to say.
david, maybe you should put your ego away, because it's making you look foolish.

on my bugeye rex with a 16bit ecu, fuel pump duty is mapped to engine rpm, and nothing else. for about 5seconds after intial ECU power on, duty cycle is 100%, and after starting for about 15seconds.

at idle, EVERY oem fuel pump controller partnered to a subaru ej2xx engine pulse width modulates the supply voltage at 33% duty cycle.

so my statement of the facts may seem retarded, but perhaps that's only because YOU'RE reading it?
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Old 12-22-2006, 02:41 PM   #47
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where's the popcorn.
I still wanna know what is spinning the new pump faster under boost???
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:05 PM   #48
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hey ride500,

Regarding the Subaru pump you are correct, after I checked, the Subaru calls it duty cycle.

But in reality it works just like I just said, the voltage is varied, you guys call it duty cycle, I call it the voltage being varied. Both are correct but in this case, I guess I was the retarded one and in the world of Subaru's it is considered duty cycle.

Sorry for my mistake.

Last edited by David Buschur; 01-06-2007 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 01-06-2007, 04:22 PM   #49
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Al from Dynoflash was here these last two days. Had quite a few EVO's and Subaru's to tune.

We did some datalogging on a 2004 STi this afternoon. I wanted to check out this "duty cycle" that Subaru uses.

Looks like idle, part throttle, low boost the duty cycle always reads 33%.

At 4 psi of boost the duty cycle goes up to 66% and at 9 psi the duty cycle goes up to 100%.

Sound about like what you were saying?

The EVO does the same thing and it could very well be "called" duty cycle too, no way to know at this point. What it does is basically the same thing though. At anything under 2500 rpm the EVO runs 9 volts as soon as it hits 2500 rpm the voltage jumps to 13.2 volts.

For the double pumper (twin intank pumps) on the Subaru that we build the primary pump is still going to run with this standard duty cycle. The secondary pump will come on with full battery voltage at 16 psi.

David Buschur
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Old 01-10-2007, 10:47 AM   #50
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I was able to overrun my stock FPR with a single Walbro and the Hydra EMS.

Unfortunately, the Hydra doesn't run the exact same fuel pump duty cycle(s) as the factory ECU. Instead of 33%, 66%, and 100%, the Hydra runs something like 50%, 80%, and 100%. It was funny to see the fuel pressure go DOWN while manifold pressure went UP, under 0psi. I also noticed that the stock FPR would start to behave normally if the fuel temperature went up. It was a very weird situation. After the install of an Aeromotive universal FPR, everything was completely normal again.
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