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Old 12-11-2006, 01:00 PM   #1
ride_the_pony69
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Question Hydra vs. Cobb

I currently have the old cobb ap and want to know what will I gain from getting the hydra? Is it better to have a standalone over a reflash? I have an fp red and am pretty much built up minus the block. Is the new cobb ap suppose to be pretty good or just the same just with a new look and options? I like the idea of being able to have 5 maps to choose from if I want to run just pump gas, meth or race gas. I don't know if you can do that with hydra. Help me out!
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:30 PM   #2
jblaine
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What you currently have -- does it work fine?
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Old 12-11-2006, 06:38 PM   #3
ride_the_pony69
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Yeah it works fine, i am putting down 480whp at 29psi with and fp red. That is internally gated as well. Every now and again though I have to keep reflashing my ecu cuz it won't hold a map.
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Old 12-11-2006, 06:43 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride_the_pony69 View Post
...I have to keep reflashing my ecu cuz it won't hold a map.
How so? Can you explain this a little more?
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
How so? Can you explain this a little more?
I think he is probably talking about learning away from the basemap settings.
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixlimited View Post
I think he is probably talking about learning away from the basemap settings.
Hmmm, OK, I'm with you here. If that's the case then he might have a bad base map that ECU doesn't like because it is detecting knock. So, in short order it pulls timing and adds fuel, and the car feels like a comparative slug.

I've heard of that happening before...another guy complained it would "learn" and get slow, so he kept on reflashing the car and it eventually grenaded due to detonation. Broke a piston and flattened a rod bearing, damaging the crank. Ugly, and all due simply to a bad tune - which the ECU was trying its best to save him from.

OTOH, if the tuned map is good, learning should either do virtually nothing or make it even faster unless the ambient temperature and pressure are whacked, and even then it will only do its job to save the motor.

Last edited by flycaster; 12-11-2006 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 12-12-2006, 09:28 AM   #7
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The thing to keep in mind when comparing a reflash to the Hydra is to look at the modifications at hand. Reflashes are great when used within the ECUs capacity. Given your HP level it's likely you have maxed out your MAF and MAP sensors. Why is this bad? Since the sensors are already maxed out as boost increases and the temperatures change the sensors cannot send a signal to the ecu to increase or decrease fuel and ignition timing. This is often why the tune can feel great under certain conditions and others it's pulling ignition timing because of detonation due to an inability to compensate. You also have very limited resolution for tuning turbochargers with such a large boost and air flow range.

You will see all day long people making 400+ whp on reflashes but is it really the best way to do it, no. Can it be done, yes. It's also common practice to piggy-back a reflash with another ecu but once you start adding the cost of a reflash, a piggy-back, and two tunes a Hydra doesn't sound very expensive. Step away from all the marketing hype and analyze what each platform offers for features and see if they fit within your expectations.

Also feel free to call me if you want to discuss anything about the Hydra. Just call next week as I'm out of the country currently.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 12-12-2006, 10:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
The thing to keep in mind when comparing a reflash to the Hydra is to look at the modifications at hand. Reflashes are great when used within the ECUs capacity. Given your HP level it's likely you have maxed out your MAF and MAP sensors. Why is this bad? Since the sensors are already maxed out as boost increases and the temperatures change the sensors cannot send a signal to the ecu to increase or decrease fuel and ignition timing. This is often why the tune can feel great under certain conditions and others it's pulling ignition timing because of detonation due to an inability to compensate. You also have very limited resolution for tuning turbochargers with such a large boost and air flow range.

You will see all day long people making 400+ whp on reflashes but is it really the best way to do it, no. Can it be done, yes. It’s also common practice to piggy-back a reflash with another ecu but once you start adding the cost of a reflash, a piggy-back, and two tunes a Hydra doesn’t sound very expensive. Step away from all the marketing hype and analyze what each platform offers for features and see if they fit within your expectations.

Also feel free to call me if you want to discuss anything about the Hydra. Just call next week as I’m out of the country currently.

Thanks,
Phil
240.246.0302
http://www.elementtuning.com
For me Hydra came down to this:
3 bar MAP
onboard CL boost targetting
water control
no DA(A),DA(B),DA(C) nonsense
no memory limits on my ST AP maps nonsense (um, why can't I change the idle from ST again?)
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:17 AM   #9
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I got a chance to check out a Cobb "Stage 2" map this past weekend... While I think it may have been an old version of their map, it was *bad*.

If someone were to get a Cobb AP, they should definitely get a ProTune from a reputable shop... but even then, the Hydra still offers more, IMO.
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Old 12-12-2006, 01:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride_the_pony69 View Post
480whp at 29psi with and fp red
I don't believe the Hydra is for everybody, but when you start to exceed 400whp on a regular basis, I believe it's the ONLY way to go.

I'm guessing your figures are with race gas. If you want to run similar numbers above on pump, the Hydramist would be an awesome addition to your setup. Another benefit of running a hydra.
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Old 12-16-2006, 02:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaniegenie View Post
I don't believe the Hydra is for everybody, but when you start to exceed 400whp on a regular basis, I believe it's the ONLY way to go.

I'm guessing your figures are with race gas. If you want to run similar numbers above on pump, the Hydramist would be an awesome addition to your setup. Another benefit of running a hydra.
I agree with you that it isn't for everybody. I just got one, and I'm not sure its for me either... Up until now I have been doing the reflash thing, doing my best to stay away from the nitty gritty aspect of keeping these engines running perfectly, but with my built engine a few weeks away, I am told it is the only way to keep that engine running properly really... Fortunately for me a good friend of mine sells them and can perform road tuning as well until somone like Phil comes up for a tune session or something... Alternatively, I was thinking that perhaps the HKS F-Con V would be a better bet for me since again, I don't have to tune myself, and I have a dealer nearby who can do that too. With nobody on the forums running it though, i went for the Hydra.

That it can control the hydramist is also a plus in my book. I was looking over the interface on my laptop last night, and it is kind of mind-boggling how there are so many little things to tweek and the like....not that i know what half of them do...

So I'm here to try to learn as much as i can about it all really...
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Old 12-22-2006, 03:13 AM   #12
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I dunno. Don't ban me. But I think there are always trades off between these two platforms.

Most Stanalone units have far less inferior adapabity and flexibility than OEM ecus. Aspects like cold start, idle control, ambient temperature and atmospheric pressure compensation or even gasoline variation.

What you get in return wiht Standalones are superior resolution and control of fueling and ignition, quicker ECU processing time and consistency (since they don't have Dynamic Igniton Advance kind of things).

In my opinion, it all comes down to the user's goal. If you want a civilized, flexible and reliable system with considerably high horsepower capability (in the 300+ range), reflashing OEM ECU is the way to go.

If you have extremely high modified engine with big turbo capable of pushing 400+ hps. and you want to extract every bit of power out of that motor while you don't care much about idle control or variation of engine operating conditions then go with Standalone.

There is no Best of Both world ecu platform to my knowledge.

Motec motherboard replacement is the closest thing to that as far as I know.....
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:18 AM   #13
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I think there are a lot of generalizations in this thread that don't hold true anymore. For many years aftermarket stand-alones were really basic and unsophisticated. Stand-alones like the Hydra EMS are extremely capable in all aspects with very few limitations and even have substantial advantages over an OEM ecu when installed on a modified Subaru. There is no reason an aftermarket standalone cannot be as good as or better than an OEM ecu because after all your OEM ecu is a standalone. The idle quality of a Hydra EMS tuned car with cams and headwork is far superior to what can be achieved on the OEM ecu for instance.

I think with the increased popularity of custom engines and how many 9 and 10 second Hydra cars there are result in many thinking it's as easy as purchasing the parts to get the same results. Most of these 9 and 10 second cars are not only built but they are also tuned by professionals with experience tuning 500-700 hp cars such as me or Gadiel in PR. If it was as easy as buying the parts and getting a perfectly tuned base map there would be many more of these extreme cars.

For bolt on modifications a great base map can be supplied but for cars with head and cam work or modifications that we do not have base maps for will require substantial tuning. We can always make recommendations to customers we feel provide the best performance and that we can supply well tuned base maps for.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
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Old 12-22-2006, 12:06 PM   #14
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Wait.. do all hydras ship with 3 bar map sensors? I bought mine earlier this year for my 03 wrx, from World One.
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Old 12-22-2006, 12:47 PM   #15
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Yes, a 3 bar map sensor is standard.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 12-25-2006, 08:30 PM   #16
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Wait.. do all hydras ship with 3 bar map sensors? I bought mine earlier this year for my 03 wrx, from World One.
You mean youve had your hydra for one year and not installed it? How can you resist having it there without testing it? If you hear voices in your home at night its probably her calling you (My precious COUGH, GOLUM)
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:08 PM   #17
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All I am going to say is I had an Cobbs Ap I thought it was great. That was till I did a 2.5 hybrid swap and learned the true limitations of the stock ecu. After hours of wasted time and money, I bought a Hydra. It was the best thing I ever did.

Last edited by ScottC; 01-05-2007 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 01-06-2007, 08:31 AM   #18
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The ecu have some limits that you can live with. But when it comes to finer resolution and making power from every last bit, using a Hydra, Autronic, Motec or any other good high resolution ECU would really work.

I was surprise the other day that the Hydra did not have per inject, per spark control. That hurt me. Damn
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Old 01-08-2007, 10:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by west_minist View Post
The ecu have some limits that you can live with. But when it comes to finer resolution and making power from every last bit, using a Hydra, Autronic, Motec or any other good high resolution ECU would really work.

I was surprise the other day that the Hydra did not have per inject, per spark control. That hurt me. Damn
Not sure why you would need individual cylinder spark control but it does have individual injector control. It's under select/settings/injection.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:06 PM   #20
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Hydra told me it had neither. woo.

Let me see.

Would this allow me to add a little more fuel per cylinder?

In other words, if I an monitoring per header and I fine #3 is lean in some areas, I do not think it can do that, so Andrew is correct. You can add overall, since there is not fuel maps per cylinder.

No prob Phil, I have not seen any unit that is better, except Autronic Hopefully, more firmware releases will take car of this issue.
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Old 01-09-2007, 11:07 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by west_minist View Post
Hydra told me it had neither. woo.

Let me see.

Would this allow me to add a little more fuel per cylinder?

In other words, if I an monitoring per header and I fine #3 is lean in some areas, I do not think it can do that, so Andrew is correct. You can add overall, since there is not fuel maps per cylinder.

No prob Phil, I have not seen any unit that is better, except Autronic Hopefully, more firmware releases will take car of this issue.
I suspect you misunderstood Andrew as individual injector control has been a feature since day one.

This is taken directly off of the Element Tuning website:

Individual Fuel Injector Control:

Subarus in particular are known to have problems related to a lean running cylinder. Often fuel rails are recommended but they only increase overall fuel and don't address the problem of uneven air distribution to various cylinders. We've added individual injector trim allowing more fuel to be injected to the cylinder that's running leaner than the rest.



You have individual injector control which means you can increase fuel in a particular cylinder. This takes a lot of skill and the right equipement to tune this properly and safely.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:44 PM   #22
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Ok. I see the overall effect. Thanks Phil
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Old 01-15-2007, 11:22 PM   #23
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Thanks Phil for all the brilliant insite
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Old 01-16-2007, 12:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubyDuz View Post
Thanks Phil for all the brilliant insite
You are welcome. I add information and answer questions when I can. I wish I could document everything I know about the Hydra as it compares to other computers but it would be a major under taking

Maybe some day I’ll write an advanced tuning book and with the $4 I make from the proceeds I could buy myself a smoothie
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:39 PM   #25
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yea maybe a small
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