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Old 12-12-2006, 06:12 PM   #1
iluvdrt
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Default Time for w rebuild what to do???

OK, my HG is blown and I can not drive her very much longer than I have or I will risk loosing my heads to the heat. It is time for a rebuild. Here is what I am considering, I need some insight as to what would be the most benificial for my driving style. I mostly just do some auto x ing and maybe some open class rally. Really, I just to like to find an open country road in the back woods, and do some spirited driving. (go ahead and flame you do it to).

I have read the faqs, and I have done the research, now I just need some feed back.

What I have. BG5 98 GT wagon auto 2.5 GT DOHC

What I am doing regardless..
WRX (later model) 5 spd rear diff conversion

What I am wanting to know:

Option 1
Go N/A, delta cams grind (220), TB spacer, underdrive pulley, shaved heads, ARP studs, valve job, P&P, new valve springs, CAI, Exhaust (2.25 seems to be about right).

Option 2;
Get a Ver 7 short block (sti), injectors, and fuel pump, use my EJ25 N/A heads, ARP studs, TD04 turbo (stock WRX), S-AFC, and of course the basics CAI, Exhaust, etc, with a front mount.

Basically with the short block, I want something I can just plug in, I dont want all of the headaches of wireing. I figure if I use my heads, the wireing will be a lot easier.

I am shooting for 250-300whp turbo, and 200 if I go NA.

My main question is, is how dependable is the STi block with NA heads? What are the differances other than the flow rates, variable valve timing, and larger valves (I am not sure on that one).

If anyone can shed some light on this, I would appreciate it, I am beginning the rebuild/swap around the middle of Jan, and I need to know what I need to buget for it. Thanks, for any thoughts/ info
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Old 12-13-2006, 05:00 PM   #2
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What's your budget?
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Old 12-13-2006, 05:12 PM   #3
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What's your budget?

About $2500
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Old 12-13-2006, 05:30 PM   #4
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Let me suggest option #3. Combine option #1 with a phase II Ej25 shortblock. Because of the changes to the shortblock design from '00 and later, there is less piston dish. Using that block with your heads puts your compression ratio up in the low 11's. You can still run it on pump gas, but require premium. It's some free power.

Also, Don't shave the heads any more than any warpage requires. Those heads like to warp if you cough at them, and the more material you take off of them, the more likely you are to see a repeat of the HG issue.

Lastly, use the Ej257 STi head gaskets. And personally, I would skip the ARP studs, but that's just me...
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Old 12-13-2006, 05:44 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Let me suggest option #3. Combine option #1 with a phase II Ej25 shortblock. Because of the changes to the shortblock design from '00 and later, there is less piston dish. Using that block with your heads puts your compression ratio up in the low 11's. You can still run it on pump gas, but require premium. It's some free power.

Also, Don't shave the heads any more than any warpage requires. Those heads like to warp if you cough at them, and the more material you take off of them, the more likely you are to see a repeat of the HG issue.

Lastly, use the Ej257 STi head gaskets. And personally, I would skip the ARP studs, but that's just me...

So basically you are saying go NA with a higher compresion (newer) short block from like a 2.5i and use STi HG's? Why not the studs though?
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Old 12-13-2006, 05:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvdrt View Post
Basically with the short block, I want something I can just plug in, I dont want all of the headaches of wireing. I figure if I use my heads, the wireing will be a lot easier.
If youíre considering going boosted on a budget; I have an 05í ej205 short-block in great condition with 24k miles on it, for sale dirt cheap. Itís the open-deck turbo block out of the impeza wrx. $300

Beats 1,500 for an sti block...
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Old 12-13-2006, 07:44 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by xcntrk75 View Post
If youíre considering going boosted on a budget; I have an 05í ej205 short-block in great condition with 24k miles on it, for sale dirt cheap. Itís the open-deck turbo block out of the impeza wrx. $300

Beats 1,500 for an sti block...

Would my heads bolt up to that?
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Old 12-13-2006, 08:57 PM   #8
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yep45
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:22 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Wiscon_Mark View Post
yep45

OK, I am interested, what would be involved(parts wise(IE useing EJ25 HG's or EJ20 HG's)), and aside from maybe a S-AFC what additional wireing would be involved?

Obvious:
STi dual port header
WRX turbo
IC of some sort
S-AFC
Turbo back exhaust
HG's but to which engine?
Regular re-seal gaskets
timing belt/tensioners
possible cam grind
new head bolts, or studs (ARP)

anything else
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:10 PM   #10
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I would add a wrx ecu to that since you're already using most of the wrx engine.

And fuel; wrx injectors and pump.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:16 PM   #11
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I would add a wrx ecu to that since you're already using most of the wrx engine.

And fuel; wrx injectors and pump.
I dont think a WRX ECU will plug into my stock 98 harness. Thats why I am getting the S-AFC

Good call on the injectors, and fuel pump.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:27 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by iluvdrt View Post
I dont think a WRX ECU will plug into my stock 98 harness. Thats why I am getting the S-AFC

Good call on the injectors, and fuel pump.
Maybe not directly, but if you get the harness or at least the plug, you can splice some wires.

It's going to take some wiring anyways.
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Old 12-14-2006, 07:55 AM   #13
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You don’t need the wrx ecu unless you plan to run the wrx wiring harness. Sounds to me like you want to run it standalone using individual fuel and boost computers, etc.

Also, I think you’d want to keep your existing NA header and have it modified for a custom up/down pipe setup. If you go with the wrx/sti exhaust manifold you’ll need the turbo engine cross-member to clear the up-pipe mounting location.

PS: I also have a complete wrx top-mount intercooler FS too.. Package deal (Shortblock, TMIC)?
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:14 AM   #14
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Not to mention that it's likely the WRX ecu won't work with the older DOHC heads.

as for the rear diff swap, the wrx one has a 3.9 ratio whereas your legacy has a 4.11. If you are looking to upgrade to LSD, you'll either need to find a 4.11 rear diff (jdm legacies had them, as do US legacy GT and 00-01 RS), or take the LSD out of the wrx diff and use your legacy ring and pinion gears.

don't worry about a cam grind if you to with the ej205 block. You will have more power than you know what to do with and you will more than likely end up overspending your budget because swaps always cost more than anticipated.

xcntrk75- if he doesn't grab that short block, I am mighty tempted! Early christmas for me? hmmmm.
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Old 12-15-2006, 06:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvdrt View Post
Would my heads bolt up to that?

Bolt up yes. Safely, IMHO, no. The reason for this is the differential in the bore between the 2 engines. It's too much. I tried this once in my garage and the EJ25 combustion chamber is too large in diameter. Bolt them to an Ej22, yep, bolt them to an EJ20? I am pretty sure they won't make a seal...

And for the above question regarding why no studs? The true purpose of studs is for use on race engines that see refreshing often and need something quick and reliable and reusable. And studding the engine is a bit of a hassle on a quicky rebuild.

One other thing that could come up as a result of my above comments: While you can reuse the factory headbolts, it's a subject of great debate. I reuse them once. Some people always buy new. Others say they reuse them over and over again with no problems. Take that FWIW. Also, the head gasket failure issue is generally attributed to the original HG's and not the head bolts. Some say they weren't tight enough from the factory. One local engine builder believes that. As a result, when it says tighen 90-100, he goes 100-105 degrees on both of the retorques at the end of the tightening sequence. Again, do that under advisement and your own judgement. I have done it with no ill effects, but wouldn't want someone to come back and say," you told me to do this and I broke a bolt and lost a day fixing my engine. blah blah blah..."

As for plugging in a WRX ECU? Nope. Won't work. But you can decently run a turbo kit on your ECU with an AFC, a boost controller and RRFPR. It's old skool and it's rough, but it works good enough. If you wanna do something cheap, try go with an open deck Ej22E block with your heads. It's 8.6:1 compression, which is very boost friendly. I have friends who have done this build and run 12-14psi through a turbo as large as a TOD5-16g for 50k mi and it just keeps coming back. It's one of the old skool budget turbo builds guys have been doing since before the WRX hit our shores...

Christophe,
What the hey do you need that block for? We'll talk manana. I just had a few JDM longblocks dropped in my lap for uber cheap...

Last edited by Matt Monson; 12-15-2006 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 12-15-2006, 06:46 PM   #16
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To add to what Matt said about boosting an EJ22E...

According to Reddevil, the earlier EJ22 blocks had forged internals (even though they are open deck) and are boost friendl(ier). I don't know where the cutoff is, but I believe the first revision on the EJ22 block itself was later 1996/early 1997 when they lost the Hydraulic Lash adjusters and changed the design of the valves making it an interference engine (which was a move to up the compression ratio).
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Old 12-16-2006, 10:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Bolt up yes. Safely, IMHO, no. The reason for this is the differential in the bore between the 2 engines. It's too much. I tried this once in my garage and the EJ25 combustion chamber is too large in diameter. Bolt them to an Ej22, yep, bolt them to an EJ20? I am pretty sure they won't make a seal...

And for the above question regarding why no studs? The true purpose of studs is for use on race engines that see refreshing often and need something quick and reliable and reusable. And studding the engine is a bit of a hassle on a quicky rebuild.

One other thing that could come up as a result of my above comments: While you can reuse the factory headbolts, it's a subject of great debate. I reuse them once. Some people always buy new. Others say they reuse them over and over again with no problems. Take that FWIW. Also, the head gasket failure issue is generally attributed to the original HG's and not the head bolts. Some say they weren't tight enough from the factory. One local engine builder believes that. As a result, when it says tighen 90-100, he goes 100-105 degrees on both of the retorques at the end of the tightening sequence. Again, do that under advisement and your own judgement. I have done it with no ill effects, but wouldn't want someone to come back and say," you told me to do this and I broke a bolt and lost a day fixing my engine. blah blah blah..."

As for plugging in a WRX ECU? Nope. Won't work. But you can decently run a turbo kit on your ECU with an AFC, a boost controller and RRFPR. It's old skool and it's rough, but it works good enough. If you wanna do something cheap, try go with an open deck Ej22E block with your heads. It's 8.6:1 compression, which is very boost friendly. I have friends who have done this build and run 12-14psi through a turbo as large as a TOD5-16g for 50k mi and it just keeps coming back. It's one of the old skool budget turbo builds guys have been doing since before the WRX hit our shores...

Christophe,
What the hey do you need that block for? We'll talk manana. I just had a few JDM longblocks dropped in my lap for uber cheap...


Thanks, for all of the info.

I think after careful consideration, I am just going to build her N/A and drive it...even as an auto. It is almost paid off, and I would really just like to have new Legacy GT, or possibly even an STi.

Although I have been to known to change my mind.....
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Old 12-18-2006, 01:16 PM   #18
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That's a really good approach. If you do what I suggested above as a budget NA build, you can expect around 140+whp out of it...

Drop me a PM if you have any questions as you dig into it...
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:25 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
That's a really good approach. If you do what I suggested above as a budget NA build, you can expect around 140+whp out of it...

Drop me a PM if you have any questions as you dig into it...


Cool, Thanks Matt.
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Old 12-18-2006, 09:47 PM   #20
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Fix it,
Drive it,
build another motor OUTSIDE the car,
Swap when ready.....

This lets you do it at least 1/2way right.
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Old 01-01-2007, 01:03 PM   #21
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+1 to what reddevil just said.

Getting another motor and putting it together completely simplifys the swap into a one day job (if you know what your doing) and if you run into areas where something goes wrong on the motor your building, your not running into downtime on your only working car. if that is your only working car.

lol

I experienced this first hand when I tried mounting an EA82 carb manifold onto my EA81 in my '88 hatch. Tons of issues and two days to do it? I had very little mechanical experience at this point too... lol... and I so f*'d up so bad. Anyways, I crossthreaded a bolt for the intake manifold and had to do a headswap. This added more time. See where I'm going? Better to have another motor ready and built to swap in. Let's hope you don't have any issues like I did though. lol

So if you managed to get an identical motor from a parts yard, and grabbed a new phase II EJ25, and put all new accessories on it (oil pump, water pump, ect.) then you'd have a slightly more powerful motor, and since all new thingies and parts, it would be very reliable too.

edit: and why in the **** does it say scooby newbie? I've been on this board for like four years.

Last edited by JonofScio; 01-01-2007 at 01:05 PM. Reason: because your mom sucks in bed.
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Old 01-01-2007, 01:36 PM   #22
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edit: and why in the **** does it say scooby newbie? I've been on this board for like four years.
It's based on post count, not age
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Old 01-01-2007, 03:28 PM   #23
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so because I lurk more than post it means I'm a newbie? bleh. I've already served my time as a newbie, just like everyone else. lol. </rant>
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Old 01-01-2007, 04:32 PM   #24
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Thanks for the info guys. I am looking at getting a '97 GT and swapping - this info really helps. BTW I've been a member since '00 and I am still a "newbie"!
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Old 01-01-2007, 06:12 PM   #25
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so because I lurk more than post it means I'm a newbie? bleh. I've already served my time as a newbie, just like everyone else. lol. </rant>
Dude, it barely means anything. I'm 1000 posts away from guru, and am anything but.
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