Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday February 11, 2016
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-15-2006, 05:41 PM   #1
cwepruk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 121757
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru Forester
White

Default Engine Options - Axis vs OEM STi vs Rebuild

I finally have a good bit of numbers on some engine work on my FXT. None of it is cheap.

However, pricewise, the STI shortblock and full rebuild (w/ Cobb forged pistons) are about the same price. The Axis shortblock with forged/coated pistons is about $500 more.

STi shortblock

Pro's - Subaru factory shortblock, brand new. Likely no issues with it as it's factory. Stock heads remain untouched assuming they are fine. Cast pistons are the quietest. Can sell my broken shortblock for +-$500 (est) or build up the shortblock and sell it.

Cons - cast pistons, same ones that got me in this mess. Reusing my stock untouched heads. Zero warranty.


Axis shortblock

Pro's - probably the best name I could find for shortblocks and the cheapest. Forged pistons, reputable builder. Can get coated pistons too. Can sell my broken shortblock for +-$500 (est) or build up the shortblock and sell it.

Cons - a bit more money and forged pistons have cold piston slap. There seems to be no way around it. It doesn't seem to be horrid, but everyone says it's noticable when cold. 3000 miles away should something happen.

Cons - price, border hassles, support if something goes wrong.


Rebuild

Pro's - top to bottom rebuild with Cobb forged pistons. Likely more support if there is any issues. Supposed reputable local builder with Subaru experience.

Cons - piston slap again, no shortblock to sell, "how reputable is reputable". I checked the local BBB and there was no complaints, but there isn't much way to check these guys out. I might call them and ask for some info/references or something.

So yeah...Thoughts?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
cwepruk is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 12-15-2006, 06:27 PM   #2
quickscooby
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39415
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Texas
Vehicle:
STI 444/452@26psi
479/492 @ 30psi GT30R .82

Default

Axis shortblock all the way. Burns no oil, piston slap is hardly noticeable and only when it's really cold outside. I only have a stage 2 shortblock and I'm putting down 450ish whp on 93+meth. Daily driver 80+ miles.
quickscooby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 06:32 PM   #3
wrxfactor
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 49978
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Shrewsbury, MA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX w/ JDM STi
6spd, EJ255, VF39 & EWG

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by quickscooby View Post
Axis shortblock all the way. Burns no oil, piston slap is hardly noticeable and only when it's really cold outside. I only have a stage 2 shortblock and I'm putting down 450ish whp on 93+meth. Daily driver 80+ miles.
Texas vs. Canada, eh? I don't know much about piston slap but if it's noise is directly correlated to temperature, then it will be much different for him in Canada than for you in TX.
wrxfactor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 06:40 PM   #4
cwepruk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 121757
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru Forester
White

Default

I have another thread on the slap, but any input is appreciated since I will be having a lot of cold starts. Average winter temps are 10-15 degrees, but it can get as low as -30 on record occasions. I typically park in a garage that is usually warm, but at work, it's outdoors.

Pretty much anything below 5 degrees, I will use my block heater (keeps the engine warm when not in use).
cwepruk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 06:55 PM   #5
PeteDucati
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44629
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: '04WRX-Axis ej257, IPT 4eat.
Vehicle:
CNC 'd heads, cams
DB18g/EWG - F/S $8K

Default

You can ship Ron (Axis) your blown block - he can bore, balance, and re-assemble it for alot cheaper than you think.
PeteDucati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 08:44 PM   #6
flycaster
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 60142
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Vehicle:
2011 WRX
Grey

Default

I live in a climate that sees some cold temps too. In fact it's about 15 outside right now. I have a Cobb motor that has some fairly high P-SW clearances and, sure, it's noisy for the first 10-15 seconds. I can still hear a little under load until the oil comes up to temp, but it's no big deal. I've never had an oil analysis that says my piston and cylinder wear are anything but normal.

IMO, slap is over-rated; otoh, a thorough warm-up is not.
flycaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 10:31 PM   #7
cwepruk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 121757
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru Forester
White

Default

10-15 seconds is acceptable to me, but how noisy is noisy?
cwepruk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2006, 01:38 AM   #8
WRX-Blue-Mica
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 37938
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indonesia
Vehicle:
02 WRX
Blue Mica

Default

not that noisy ... when first time I started the engine after installed the Axis stg4, I noticed the the piston noise ... but after break in the engine, the noise was getting less ... now after more than 1 year, I almost can't hear it when I stand in front of the car with open hood even when the engine still cold ... but the temp in Indonesia only in between 75-100F...
WRX-Blue-Mica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2006, 01:40 PM   #9
fransti
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 121891
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Leavenworth Ks
Vehicle:
2008 STI

Default

AXIS website? I am having a hard time finding it. I am also in the same boat. 370whp is all my STI could take .
fransti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2006, 02:16 PM   #10
McWidowmaker
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 108482
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default

I agree with the axis. The motors is very very good. Use almost no oil and you will not notice the piston slap.

http://www.axispowerracing.net/
McWidowmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 02:42 AM   #11
speed_freak27
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 30798
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: kansas city ks
Vehicle:
2001 RS-T Hybrid
2.5>2.2T>257>2.35S

Default

I would say axis too. If your looking for someone closer you could always check out TWE they've built a 300 hp na motor for a local rs owner.
speed_freak27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 03:40 AM   #12
WRX-Blue-Mica
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 37938
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indonesia
Vehicle:
02 WRX
Blue Mica

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fransti View Post
AXIS website? I am having a hard time finding it. I am also in the same boat. 370whp is all my STI could take .
Axis Power Link: http://www.axispowerracing.net/

Good Luck
WRX-Blue-Mica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 06:56 PM   #13
ejh25
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 65267
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Arlington, VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Silver

Default

I went Cosworth and I have no piston slap what-so-ever.
(Cosworth Pistons, Rods, and Bearings).
ejh25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 07:19 PM   #14
jigga
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 9960
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: in bed...
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
WRBlue Perl

Default

cosworth might be an option too... They have canadian dealers also (in British Columbia) so you won't need to deal with customs... I was going to go with Cosworth for my engine build, but wanted something with iron sleeves, which Cosworth did not have on the menu. Problem with Cosworth though is the cost for what you get..but then at the end of the day, that might be a price worth paying if you think so.
jigga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 07:33 PM   #15
flycaster
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 60142
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Vehicle:
2011 WRX
Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejh25 View Post
I went Cosworth and I have no piston slap what-so-ever.
(Cosworth Pistons, Rods, and Bearings).
If they use 4032 alloy in their pistons, I believe it. You can get no noise with the Mahle set too if you run tight clearance. It's always a bit of a trade-off.
flycaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 09:01 PM   #16
ImprezaRSX
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 10955
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Stevens, WA
Vehicle:
07, 06,01,93 I have
4 domtuned subys

Default

TWE is pretty pricey, but has better engineering and quality control than cosworth.
ImprezaRSX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 09:09 PM   #17
cwepruk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 121757
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru Forester
White

Default

Who is TWE? I have found a few posts, but no website.
cwepruk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 09:22 PM   #18
ImprezaRSX
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 10955
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Stevens, WA
Vehicle:
07, 06,01,93 I have
4 domtuned subys

Default

www.techworkseng.com
They are seriously probably the best subaru parts engineers in North America and a few other continents.
PLUS, they are cool as ****. Any time I call I am sure to get awesome customer service. They aren't afraid to tell you WHY they did what they did. Also, they are one of the only shops that posts up their specs. Actual machining specs so you know what you are getting when you purchase from them.
ImprezaRSX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 10:48 PM   #19
ejh25
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 65267
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Arlington, VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImprezaRSX View Post
TWE is pretty pricey, but has better engineering and quality control than cosworth.
I'm curious, what's the basis for this comment?
ejh25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 12:39 AM   #20
cwepruk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 121757
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru Forester
White

Default

Cosworth and TWE are too pricey for me. I am still on a budget and both those are a good 2k+ more than my other three options.

As of now, I'm leaning to the rebuild option with Cobb coated pistons. I might be able to save some money by deleting the headwork if it's not required.
cwepruk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 01:01 AM   #21
flycaster
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 60142
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Vehicle:
2011 WRX
Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwepruk View Post
As of now, I'm leaning to the rebuild option with Cobb coated pistons....
Since Cobb uses JE pistons, give JE a call, tell them your HP goals, and ask them how tight you can safely run them - that's your best bet if you decide to use them.

The other alternative is to use Mahle pistons. They can be run at least a full thou tighter than the 2618 pistons. Not quite as strong, but still much better than the stock set. You might want to consider that, especially since you seem to be worried about cold slap, and they come already coated to boot.
flycaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 02:25 AM   #22
ImprezaRSX
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 10955
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Stevens, WA
Vehicle:
07, 06,01,93 I have
4 domtuned subys

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejh25 View Post
I'm curious, what's the basis for this comment?
I talk to Tom, the chief engineer at TWE, a lot.
I was telling him (for the 100th time) that his products were out of reach for so many of us because they were so expensive. TWE's primary customers are rally teams. Then secondary is the average (wealthy) consumer. He told me that they were thinking of coming out with another line of product. A line of product that doesn't have as strict of QA/QC as they currently offered product. This would mean less rejected material and a lower cost. He said that it would bring the product down to a "Cosworth or Axis racing" level of quality. (which is a good statement for axis!)

Cosworth has a good name for themselves, but thier work isn't as good as people think. Too often they have applied technology from other engines to subarus. For example, their 1mm oversize valves and head package hurt flow. Sure it's more than stock, but not near what can be done with the factory valve size. Why? do you ask. Because the valve is so large that it obstructs flow and shrouds the port. Also the valve seats in the head aren't large enough to cut any more material out of than is possible with the factory size valve. Bigger isn't always better. 1mm oversized valves ROCK on an evo...

You ever go to a site that tells you how stringent thier tolerances are? not unless you're talking about TWE. Why is that? Probably because they don't want you to know how much they actually let through.

TWE is expensive as ****, though. Really hate that part.

Most companies won't tell you their specific specs because they don't want you copying them. Everytime I've called TWE, they gladly tell me the intricate details of their product. This is pure speculation, but I believe it's because they know that you can't replicate it without spending TONS of money on R&D. Even if they tell you the specs, it's cheaper for you to buy it from them.
ImprezaRSX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 04:12 PM   #23
ejh25
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 65267
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Arlington, VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImprezaRSX View Post
I talk to Tom, the chief engineer at TWE, a lot.
I was telling him (for the 100th time) that his products were out of reach for so many of us because they were so expensive. TWE's primary customers are rally teams. Then secondary is the average (wealthy) consumer. He told me that they were thinking of coming out with another line of product. A line of product that doesn't have as strict of QA/QC as they currently offered product. This would mean less rejected material and a lower cost. He said that it would bring the product down to a "Cosworth or Axis racing" level of quality. (which is a good statement for axis!)

Cosworth has a good name for themselves, but thier work isn't as good as people think. Too often they have applied technology from other engines to subarus. For example, their 1mm oversize valves and head package hurt flow. Sure it's more than stock, but not near what can be done with the factory valve size. Why? do you ask. Because the valve is so large that it obstructs flow and shrouds the port. Also the valve seats in the head aren't large enough to cut any more material out of than is possible with the factory size valve. Bigger isn't always better. 1mm oversized valves ROCK on an evo...

You ever go to a site that tells you how stringent thier tolerances are? not unless you're talking about TWE. Why is that? Probably because they don't want you to know how much they actually let through.

TWE is expensive as ****, though. Really hate that part.

Most companies won't tell you their specific specs because they don't want you copying them. Everytime I've called TWE, they gladly tell me the intricate details of their product. This is pure speculation, but I believe it's because they know that you can't replicate it without spending TONS of money on R&D. Even if they tell you the specs, it's cheaper for you to buy it from them.
Thanks for the info!
ejh25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 09:16 PM   #24
ImprezaRSX
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 10955
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Stevens, WA
Vehicle:
07, 06,01,93 I have
4 domtuned subys

Default

anytime.
ImprezaRSX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 05:00 PM   #25
cwepruk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 121757
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru Forester
White

Default

New option came about, I can get a 2006 WRX longblock for a pretty solid price. Any issues with this? from the reading I've done, it's an EJ255 which is essentially the same as the EJ257 (same for slightly different heads).

Input?
cwepruk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oem WRX header Vs. Oem STI header... Difference? stevey323 Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 4 10-05-2008 10:46 AM
Oem WRX header Vs. Oem STI header... Difference? stevey323 Normally Aspirated Powertrain 6 10-03-2008 03:08 AM
OEM STI vs. OEM WRX intermediate pipe? SUBYDOODIE Newbies & FAQs 6 04-13-2008 09:24 PM
Option Spoiler or OEM STi? TwoPointFiveRS Interior & Exterior Modification 9 06-21-2005 02:31 PM
Sparco Seats vs OEM STI carbonfiber_kid Interior & Exterior Modification 2 04-06-2004 01:18 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2016 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2016, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.