Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday April 17, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-26-2006, 12:18 PM   #1
TurboCharged97L
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 71508
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Wilmington, DE
Vehicle:
1997 Impretzia
Artic Silver Metallic

Default Brembo vs Rotora

Im going to upgrade my brakes in the very near future and i was just wondering what some of you guys thought would be a better upgrade. Rotora 4-piston in the front and 2-piston in the rear VS the stock sti brembo (gold)setup 4-piston fronts and 2-piston rears. thoughts, comments, which would you get? thanks guys
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
TurboCharged97L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 12:32 PM   #2
GTWORX.com
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 97303
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: inside a non preloaded shim !
Vehicle:
2009 WRX and Boxster
Gray and Black

Default

What kind of driving do you do? Are you overworking your stock brakes? What kind of tires do you have? How much power are you making? What made you choose Rotora and Brembo?

Do you want more questions? Sorry

Personally, I'd have narrowed it down to Brembo and Stoptech.....


- Andrew
GTWORX.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 03:09 PM   #3
FromageTheDog
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 81095
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Left seat.
Vehicle:
2005 WRX sedan kid-
bus. OS self-tuned!

Default

After hearing all these nightmares about severe piston knockback with any kind of non-floating caliper (Stoptech, Brembo or otherwise) due to the weak WRX (non-'05+ STi) wheel bearings, I've started wondering if any BBK is worth it.

Ducts, pads, fluid, SS lines and better rotors seem like the safer (from a usability standpoint) alternative. Cheaper too...
FromageTheDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 03:11 PM   #4
Blue5spdWRXWgn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 93606
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon - WRB
2005 9-2X - SGM

Default

Rotora is not very well respected and the Brembo conversion for a WRX doesn't have the best rear brake setup. Another thing you're going to run into with large diameter rotors with opposed-piston/fixed calipers is piston knockback due to a lack of stiffness in the WRX knuckles. The STIs have beefier knuckles to address the knockback issue and they have a different rear park brake designed for the rotors. A full conversion to STI knuckles is possible but expensive since it involves many other mating parts. The best BBK for the money is probably the Stoptech front which is balanced to work with the stock WRX rear brakes. The most trouble free upgraded front and rear brakes for a WRX are definitely the '06 4 pot and 2 pot brakes from the dealer. All of these choices can be improved with more aggressive linings, stiffer hoses and a stiffening brace for the master cylinder.

Other reasonable alternatives you might consider are TWR and TCE/Wilwood.

Last edited by Blue5spdWRXWgn; 12-26-2006 at 09:17 PM.
Blue5spdWRXWgn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 09:06 PM   #5
kcook
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 78074
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NoVA
Vehicle:
2005 STi
Aspen White

Default

what is knockback. and instead of considering brembo or rotora like i was also going to , how reliable and good are wilwoods, they seem to be on the cheaper side
kcook is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 09:26 PM   #6
Blue5spdWRXWgn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 93606
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon - WRB
2005 9-2X - SGM

Default

Knockback is Oh my gawwwwwwwwwwwsh there's no brakes!

The knuckle and hub assemblies flex under handling forces and since the calipers are on the knuckles and the rotors are on the hubs, the flexing allows the rotors to push the pistons back in the calipers which results in a long brake pedal displacement on the first application. The stock calipers are floating type with pistons only on one side which allow the caliper to move with the rotor as it flexes, where the Brembo and similar calipers have pistons on both sides and do not float with the rotor. The problem is exacerbated by larger rotors since there is more lateral motion at a bigger diameter. Racers get around this by pumping the pedal.

The Wilwoods are praised for competition use. As for street use, there tends to be more maintenance and noise with this type of system. I have no personal experience with the TCE kits, but they do seem really great for the money. The two piece rotors offer a nice weight savings, but the dissimilar metals in contact tend to corrode faster and they expand and contract at different rates which can cause noises. On the other hand, solid iron rotors tend to cup when they get really hot but the two piece stay flat as they expand under heat. They can also be less expensive to replace since the hat section can be re-used.

I went with FHI 4/2 brakes with upgraded solid rotors and pads.

There are many stages of brake upgrades and it all depends on what your goals and budget are. Check out Alcons for big budget beauties. The WRX brakes have quite a bit of potential and for most applications are more than adequate.

Last edited by Blue5spdWRXWgn; 12-26-2006 at 09:40 PM.
Blue5spdWRXWgn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 10:35 PM   #7
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

Out of curiosity, what is needed to convert over to the STi knuckle? I see they have different part #'s between the WRX and the 04 STi, but other than that I have no clue.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 11:29 PM   #8
FromageTheDog
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 81095
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Left seat.
Vehicle:
2005 WRX sedan kid-
bus. OS self-tuned!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
Out of curiosity, what is needed to convert over to the STi knuckle? I see they have different part #'s between the WRX and the 04 STi, but other than that I have no clue.
Upgraded bearings/hubs started with the '05s. The '04 STi had weaker (WRX) hubs. And yes, the latter apparently had knockback problems on the OEM brake hardware.

If you're really interested in doing this, talk to LiC Motorsports -- they specialize in this sort of thing and would almost certainly be able to get you sorted.

Last edited by FromageTheDog; 12-29-2006 at 12:17 PM. Reason: knuckles are the same -- I should have said hubs.
FromageTheDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 11:38 PM   #9
FromageTheDog
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 81095
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Left seat.
Vehicle:
2005 WRX sedan kid-
bus. OS self-tuned!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue5spdWRXWgn View Post
Rotora is not very well respected and the Brembo conversion for a WRX doesn't have the best rear brake setup.
To clarify (and assuming we're talking about the gold STi Brembos): while the Brembo fronts are a bolt-on affair, the rears require quite a bit of supporting hardware. Installing just the fronts leads to even more front brake bias on an already heavily front-biased setup (this is bad).

I can only assume that the Brembo "Gran Turismo" kits which go for nearly $3k have pistons that are matched to the stock rear brakes, but who knows?

Quote:
Other reasonable alternatives you might consider are TWR and TCE/Wilwood.
TWR is one big question mark for me. Does anyone have any meaningful track experience with their hardware?

Edit: clearly my memory of searching for TWR reviews was a fantasy. As Dave below points out, there are a couple very positive reviews floating around out there:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710051
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525109

Wilwood is another mystery. Clearly the company is capable of making world-class hardware, as the Mosler 900 supercar uses Wilwoods, but I haven't seen any accounts of how these perform on our humble WRXs in the DD/recreational tracker context.

Edit: and while searching for the TWR info, here's a thread that speaks well on the Willwoods:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525109

I wonder what oldmansan's experiences were...?

Last edited by FromageTheDog; 12-27-2006 at 08:53 AM. Reason: SEARCH, N00B!!! (OK)
FromageTheDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 03:55 AM   #10
David Glasscock
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25033
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: lakewood wa
Vehicle:
06 sti my $$ pit
05 xt my DD

Default

i had twr on my wagon and loved it. i didnt track the car but i've talked to people who have and they said they were awesome. i now have a 06 sti and to this day i feel the twr brake harder and faster then my stock brembos. it twr offtered bbk for the o6 sti, i would take them over my stock brakes and stoptechs...

if you do a search there were some people who did writeup after tracking their cars..

dave
David Glasscock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 08:40 AM   #11
TCE
Vendor
 
Member#: 100868
Join Date: Nov 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue5spdWRXWgn View Post
Other reasonable alternatives you might consider are TWR and TCE/Wilwood.
Can't speak for the TWR parts. The Wilwoods are worth a look but don't carry quite the wow factor in terms of name recognition with the tuner crowd. (oddly enough in Europe the Wilwoods are often the choice I guess because you can't get them as easy! Go figure) Their plus comes from both the affordable price point and wheel fit over other similar designs.

The TCE/Wilwoods are simply modified versions of the smaller LBK for the 15 and 16" wheel market. If you're running 16s now you may find the LBK to be a fine balance of price, durability and fit for you. And without the need for wheels. If you're running 17s then clearly taking advantages of any larger kit is the wiser investment. Step one is wheel fit, step two is price, step three is defining what's best for your use.

General info:http://www.tceperformanceproducts.co...s.pl?record=19
Local info: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=114

Knockback issues would be there still with any kit and the larger the rotor the more effect it will have.
TCE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 05:15 PM   #12
David Glasscock
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25033
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: lakewood wa
Vehicle:
06 sti my $$ pit
05 xt my DD

Default

David Glasscock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 08:06 PM   #13
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FromageTheDog View Post
Upgraded knuckles started with the '05s. The '04 STi had weaker (WRX) knuckles. And yes, the latter apparently had knockback problems on the OEM brake hardware.

If you're really interested in doing this, talk to LiC Motorsports -- they specialize in this sort of thing and would almost certainly be able to get you sorted.
I know that the 05+ have lots of redesign (still kicking myself for not get the STi instead of my WRX), but when I was fooling around on www.subarugenuineparts.com yesterday I noticed that the 04 STi has a different part # for the knuckle compared to the WRX. I wonder what the difference is.

Thanks for the info on who to talk to. It's something I might consider in the future if I have a knockback issue when I throw my Prodrive BBK on this spring.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 12:07 AM   #14
Flaroc01
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 115390
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Platinum Silver Metalic

Default

If the FHI 4-pots are a fixed caliper design why don't they get knockback. Is it only with larger rotors? Also you should consider Racingbrake brake kits as well.
Flaroc01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 09:03 AM   #15
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
I know that the 05+ have lots of redesign (still kicking myself for not get the STi instead of my WRX), but when I was fooling around on www.subarugenuineparts.com yesterday I noticed that the 04 STi has a different part # for the knuckle compared to the WRX. I wonder what the difference is.

Thanks for the info on who to talk to. It's something I might consider in the future if I have a knockback issue when I throw my Prodrive BBK on this spring.
The knuckles are the same. Many of the part numbers are different between the wrx and sti even the part is the same.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 09:03 AM   #16
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FromageTheDog View Post
After hearing all these nightmares about severe piston knockback with any kind of non-floating caliper (Stoptech, Brembo or otherwise) due to the weak WRX (non-'05+ STi) wheel bearings, I've started wondering if any BBK is worth it.

Ducts, pads, fluid, SS lines and better rotors seem like the safer (from a usability standpoint) alternative. Cheaper too...
Been there, done that. Doesn't work well for tracking the car.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 09:14 AM   #17
TCE
Vendor
 
Member#: 100868
Join Date: Nov 2005
Default

I have to agree. Regardless of brand.

You can't add mass and efficiency with OEM enhancement parts. Firmer pedal; check. Grippier pads; check. Slots, holes, dimples...; sure.

In the end you're still "rotor challenged".
You might push the duty cycle of the stock part up a bit with all this and the cooling ducts. You're still better off operating at a lower cycle with more capacity.
TCE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 09:46 AM   #18
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Couldn't agree more.

I find that my wrx on track power wise is faster than most of the other cars in my groups, but when it comes to braking...not so much. I give up so much by simply not being able to trust them when I need to. Coming down the end of a straight at 125+ and not being able to trust your brakes is nerve racking!!
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 10:07 AM   #19
FromageTheDog
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 81095
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Left seat.
Vehicle:
2005 WRX sedan kid-
bus. OS self-tuned!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Been there, done that. Doesn't work well for tracking the car.
Well I totally agree that it's not ideal, but I have yet to see a convincing solution that's DD-friendly, well-supported and effective. For my purposes (90% DD, ~4 HPDS-style events per year), I've just learned to live with having Coopers outbrake me into oblivion...

TWR: well-recommended, but TWR haven't posted anything here in years. They still exist, yes, but how interested are they in the Subaru market? I'm very reluctant to drop thousands on a product from a company that may or may not be around 5-10 years from now.

Wilwood: LBK? Maybe I should look you guys (TCE) up. How are these balanced with the rears? Would it be possible to upgrade just the fronts? Haven't heard much from folks that track these (vendors don't count; sorry TCE).

Stoptech: I wish, I wish. Seems like the perfect brake kit from the perfect brake company, but for whatever reason they clearly have some significant compatibility issues (they suffer from absurd amounts of knockback).

I understand that going to a fixed-caliper, larger-rotor system will almost inevitably lead to some pad knockback, but I'd like, at least in the low-key DD context, for my brakes to "just work" without any theatrics. Double-pumping is not something I want to be thinking about during a real emergency.

Seems pretty hopeless. TiC, TCE -- what do you run? I'd love, if nothing else, not to have to replace my front bearings every year.
FromageTheDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 10:24 AM   #20
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

I am switching to an OEM sti brembo kit front with 06 wrx 2 pots rear sometime this winter for next season. Not sure on the pads I will be running yet, but most likely will start with HP+'s as they wil work on the street and go up from there depending on performance on track.

I will be running, and do now, Motul fluid with Galpher SS lines, Cusco MC brace and home made brake ducts. I will not be using the dust shields front or rear. My fronts are off already.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 10:29 AM   #21
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
I am switching to an OEM sti brembo kit front with 06 wrx 2 pots rear sometime this winter for next season. Not sure on the pads I will be running yet, but most likely will start with HP+'s as they wil work on the street and go up from there depending on performance on track.

I will be running, and do now, Motul fluid with Galpher SS lines, Cusco MC brace and home made brake ducts. I will not be using the dust shields front or rear. My fronts are off already.

Actually, Tony. You might be running something a little different than STi front takeoffs for this upcoming season if I can get some pricing info soon...
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 10:48 AM   #22
PJC1909
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 50274
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Center City Philadelphia
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
invisible

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Been there, done that. Doesn't work well for tracking the car.
I agree. Tracked the car all last year on stockers and it always seemed like something was roasted at the end of the weekend, even with ducts.

I've tracked the TCE/WW stage 2 only once, at gingerman. It was a significant improvement. You do need 3mm spacers to run stock rims/stage 2. Todd is great.

I tried the TWR kit, but I had fitment issues that could not be resolved. The kit came poorly packed from Taiwan and there were no markings on the calipers. This was different, but more recent, than others' positive experiences.
PJC1909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 11:24 AM   #23
ESmooth
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118082
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: STOPTECH
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FromageTheDog View Post
Stoptech: I wish, I wish. Seems like the perfect brake kit from the perfect brake company, but for whatever reason they clearly have some significant compatibility issues (they suffer from absurd amounts of knockback).
We sell a very large number of kits for the WRXs and our number of complaints regarding knockback are in the vast minority. The reason you hear so much about knockback with our kits is that there are a few avid posters here on the boards that experience this issue that post about it regularly. The issue is not that our brakes have issues with knockback, but that the WRX has weak hubs that are prone to the condition and our kits are very popular among the more hardcore drivers who are more likely to experience this issue. It would be safe to say that the people experiencing severe knockback would have the same issue with any brake kit from any of the manufacturers with the same size rotors and fixed calipers.
ESmooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 12:02 PM   #24
ButtDyno
Street's closed, pizza boy
 
Member#: 17301
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Why do they always say the Evo
Vehicle:
is the "dark side"
06 Evo #7 STU, 03 IS300

Default

FWIW, I've never had any issues with knockback either for autox (lots of rapid turns) or on the street with my Stoptechs. I don't know if I have "Wednesday" hubs or what, but it hasn't been an issue. I bought my kit used from mav1c who had tracked his WRX wagon for 3 years (and who liked his brakes). Just as another datapoint
ButtDyno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 01:31 PM   #25
TCE
Vendor
 
Member#: 100868
Join Date: Nov 2005
Default

Sure I'm the vendor on this one particular kit. But I'm also more of a no BS kinda guy and prefer you make your own choices based on as much information you can get.

The smaller LBKs (both the factory Wilwood and the fatter TCE version) are targeted towards the smaller wheel market. Period. There's no way I'd hang my butt out in the wind here to tell you either of them are on par with a larger 13" kit. Not so, won't ever be.

On the other hand what they do offer for guys smaller 15-16" wheels is darn hard to beat. And you don't need to fork over more money for new wheels. Will they fit 17s? Of course. Will they be better than stock? Sure. Are they worth the cost? For what you get over the enhancment package purchase I believe so.

Are they track worthy? Personally I don't own or track a Subi so I can only relate feedback. Mostly good. One marginal. A car run with the kit (think it was the factory kit not wide rotor option) was run at T-hill and really burned up a set of pads and scored the rotors. Was it a problem? Not so much a problem as a lesser level of product for the intended use. You simply cannot expect 14" x 1.25" six pot Alcon performance from a 12" x .81 smaller four pot caliper.

In the end the customer ran it hard, used up some pads, put the street pads back in and drove it home. With the intent of running 16s on it as well I'd say it did quite well. I suggested that in the future he look at the cooling ducts and run some higher (yet) Cf and temp pads. While it still won't be Stoptech territory it will fit the smaller wheel and cost half as much.

Regardless of name, you'll never get $3000 braking parts and performance from $1000 parts. It's no different here then other parts.
TCE is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To fulfill my fetish for BBK? AP, Brembo, Stoptech, Rotora, Wilwood psun786 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 23 07-29-2006 03:14 PM
Stop Tech VS. Rotora 355 x 32mm ChAi Brakes, Steering & Suspension 10 03-20-2006 01:23 PM
To fulfill my fetish for BBK? AP, Brembo, Stoptech, Rotora, Wilwood psun786 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 0 11-11-2005 04:22 PM
Stoptech vs Rotora Frederf Brakes, Steering & Suspension 22 03-02-2003 02:23 PM
Sti Brembos vs. Aftermarket Brembos tifosi77 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 4 02-14-2002 09:35 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.