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Old 01-16-2007, 03:05 PM   #1
quazimoto
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Default Enginuity vs ECUedit:pros and cons?

I know one of the main differences is Eginuity is free and ECUedit is $120 for thenwhole package.But as far as functionality which one has more promise?Does ECUedit offer more tables/maps?Is one more user friendly than the other?I do have a LC-1 and noticed the ECUedit logger allows use of this wideband.
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Old 01-16-2007, 03:26 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
I know one of the main differences is Eginuity is free and ECUedit is $120 for thenwhole package.But as far as functionality which one has more promise?Does ECUedit offer more tables/maps?Is one more user friendly than the other?I do have a LC-1 and noticed the ECUedit logger allows use of this wideband.
Enginuity has support for the LC-1 now I believe, and I feel it is a very good program even though I have hardly used it. If you want to try it out go download it and then download someones .hex file and check out the program. Pretty cool stuff
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Old 01-16-2007, 03:38 PM   #3
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Since I'm a dev on the Enginuity project take what I have with a grain of salt, or a brick of salt....

Enginuity is actuallly a communty of people working towards a tuning suite. ECUedit is one guy.

Eninguity provides logging, wideband LC-1 integration, map editing, map smoothing, 3D eye candy, etc. Basically everything that ECUedit provides.

Enginuity runs on Windows, Linux and Mac.

Enginuity is the source for all mappings into ROMS, we support it best. ECUedit steals our mapping work.

Enginuity is working on realtime mapping and flashing currently (I have no idea if ECUedit is, though I'm sure they'll steal our realtime maps at some point)


Enginuity is Open Source, and thus will always be free. No bait and switch shareware crap.

We speak the english. Ok that was mean. But you'll get some good answers to questions on our forums. We're actually a community.

-E-
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Old 01-16-2007, 03:58 PM   #4
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Enginuity is working on realtime mapping and flashing currently (I have no idea if ECUedit is, though I'm sure they'll steal our realtime maps at some point)
-E-

best reason... you have the dev's posting answers!

anyway, any ETA on realtime yet?
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Old 01-16-2007, 04:06 PM   #5
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best reason... you have the dev's posting answers!

anyway, any ETA on realtime yet?
I've been too busy with life to help out with that complex bit. From what I have read we're currently lightly testing modfied ROMs to ensure our methodologies are sound. We've can copy ROM map data to RAM at this point, but I don't think we've actually forced the ECU to reference these maps yet. I also remember seeing we're almost through defining acceptable sets of realtime maps for tuner needs. Different tuners require/prefer different maps, and there is only so much free RAM to work with on the 16bit ECU's.

ETA? Maybe 6mo for 16bit ECU's, though I tend to sandbag quite a bit.

I hope merchgod can chime in. He's the hero on all this.
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Old 01-16-2007, 04:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tgui View Post
Since I'm a dev on the Enginuity project take what I have with a grain of salt, or a brick of salt....

Enginuity is actuallly a communty of people working towards a tuning suite. ECUedit is one guy.

Eninguity provides logging, wideband LC-1 integration, map editing, map smoothing, 3D eye candy, etc. Basically everything that ECUedit provides.

Enginuity runs on Windows, Linux and Mac.

Enginuity is the source for all mappings into ROMS, we support it best. ECUedit steals our mapping work.

Enginuity is working on realtime mapping and flashing currently (I have no idea if ECUedit is, though I'm sure they'll steal our realtime maps at some point)


Enginuity is Open Source, and thus will always be free. No bait and switch shareware crap.

We speak the english. Ok that was mean. But you'll get some good answers to questions on our forums. We're actually a community.

-E-
I have been using Enginuity 0.3.2 and have donated to the cause but was unaware of being able to log using the LC-1.I am assuming this is in the 0.4.0 beta?If you could point me in the right direction to instructions on this.I'm using Logworks right now but would rather use something like ECUexplorer.
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Old 01-16-2007, 04:40 PM   #7
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I hope merchgod can chime in. He's the hero on all this.


We've decided to scrap the original method for real-time tuning and go after something more ambitious. Instead of a having a fixed set of real-time maps that are already determined for you, we will allow the user to select which real-time tables they wish to tune (from a pool of about 19 tables). The number allowed will vary depending on the size of the tables you select (since unused ram is limited on the 16bit ecus). In addition, map switching capability will be integrated allowing you to switch between your selected real-time maps in ram to their corresponding tables in the rom on-the-fly (our current method is car is stationary, rpm>2500 and then defogger on to switch maps). We call the real-time tuning RamTune.

We're in the process of testing launch control and per gear boost/wg compensation as well and the results are good - these will also be real-time maps. This week I'll be testing the new RamTune code on my own car and if everything goes smoothly then development will shift to the java guys. It would be impossible to guess a timeframe as there are other features being worked on, but I would guess 2-3 months with all new features packaged together and available for the 16bit ecus (02-05 wrx).

As far as Ecuedit, it is a good program and you should use both and decide for yourself - after all it is your "baby" that you are tuning. As mentioned, Ecuedit is shareware, so some features will be disabled in the free version or a timed delay will be present. The advantage of Enginuity besides that it is free and has better forum support is that the ecu definitions and rom features are being actively developed. The advantage of Ecuedit is that is currently has some features that Enginuity does not currently have, such as road dyno, in-program definition editor, and rom comparison. Although, you are likely to see these features and more as Enginuity is developed.
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Old 01-16-2007, 05:05 PM   #8
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Are there any applications for subi's that will display real time gauges on the laptop screen? Or will either of these apps be doing that in the future?
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:18 PM   #9
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LC-1 integration in Enginuity isn't ready just yet, but Joe from Innovate is working on it and he is a very bright guy that knows it better than any of us. It will hopefully be ready for the 0.5.0 release, probably some time in February.

There is a realtime dash program being worked on on openecu.org called JDash. Do a search there and you should be able to find it. EvoScan apparantly is also working on adding SSM support. It'll be added to Enginuity eventually but it's really pretty low priority as it's more eye candy than useful.

EcuEdit does have some features Enginuity does not, and will likely have any new feature Enginuity does eventually. The real advantages to Enginuity are portability, support and cost. Plus the GUI, if it suits your taste more than EcuEdit.

Edit: You can also use the OpenPort with Innovate's new LogWorks plugin that'll give you realtime gauges, though I don't think you can "skin" them or make them much prettier than they already are. This is what I'm using for wideband logging until its fully integrated in Enginuity.
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Old 01-17-2007, 09:48 AM   #10
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Is LM-1 integration planned for enginuity? or just LC-1?

I use both enginuity and ecuedit. The only feature I use on ecuedit is the 3D graphing. I find it's easier to smooth things out with the graphical representation ecuedit has vs the one that enginuity has. Otherwise it's enginuity for everything.
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Old 01-17-2007, 11:47 AM   #11
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All of Innovate's MTS hardware will be supported at once. From there we can begin adding support for other widebands as we are able to get ahold of them, or maybe we can get the support from the manufacturer's the way Innovate has (but I'm not counting on that).
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Old 01-17-2007, 01:24 PM   #12
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Now that i know enginuity runs on Mac I am sold! Is there anywhere I can download a basemap to get me started? 06TR InvidaDp, 3" catback.
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Old 01-17-2007, 01:30 PM   #13
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In addition, map switching capability will be integrated allowing you to switch between your selected real-time maps in ram to their corresponding tables in the rom on-the-fly (our current method is car is stationary, rpm>2500 and then defogger on to switch maps). We call the real-time tuning RamTune.
Skeet Skeet!
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Old 01-17-2007, 01:34 PM   #14
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This may not be the appropriate spot, but would there be a way to use an "unused" input (say rear, 02 sensor) to change the fuel injector information? I ask this, because I would love to integrate a ethanol mix sensor that would automatically change the fueling to match the injected mix, so I could run E85, or straight fuel, or anything in between, without teaching my wife how to change tables.
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Old 01-17-2007, 03:37 PM   #15
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It would be possible, but we haven't done anything like that yet. Also, I don't believe there are any unused pins on the ECU, so you'd have to lose something. TGV sensors or rear o2 would be my first bet. Eventually we should be able to use pins for controlling water injection, nitrous or whatever else you want.
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
This may not be the appropriate spot, but would there be a way to use an "unused" input (say rear, 02 sensor) to change the fuel injector information? I ask this, because I would love to integrate a ethanol mix sensor that would automatically change the fueling to match the injected mix, so I could run E85, or straight fuel, or anything in between, without teaching my wife how to change tables.
Just FYI: A lot of newer flex fuel vehicles detect fuel mix no longer with a fuel type sensor, but calculate it off short term fuel trims during closed loop.

Regards
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:08 PM   #17
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im pretty sure there is atleast one unused pin on the ECU. Either that or i messed up my wiring harness.

But an ethanol sensor would be spectacular.
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Old 01-17-2007, 05:20 PM   #18
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Ecuedit is a lot faster, 3D graphing is very good and fast, the logger is lightyears ahead of the game. Log tracing and log analysis tools in Ecuedit are very good. I've found it is a lot more effective when tuning because I don't have to drop the logs into Excel to have a good look at the data.
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Old 01-17-2007, 05:44 PM   #19
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Ecuedit is a lot faster, 3D graphing is very good and fast, the logger is lightyears ahead of the game. Log tracing and log analysis tools in Ecuedit are very good. I've found it is a lot more effective when tuning because I don't have to drop the logs into Excel to have a good look at the data.
The next version of Enginuity will be a lot faster as far as loading roms and IIRC, the 3d graphing will be worked on as well. Enginuity's logger just came out in the last release, so it is still in its infancy, but look for updates as well in the next release and beyond. Ecuedit is better in these regards, but be aware that you will not be able save wideband data unless you purchase the full release (last time I checked) and that there are various delays on the shareware version, for example, a 5 minute delay to start logging.
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Old 01-17-2007, 06:14 PM   #20
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It would be possible, but we haven't done anything like that yet. Also, I don't believe there are any unused pins on the ECU, so you'd have to lose something. TGV sensors or rear o2 would be my first bet. Eventually we should be able to use pins for controlling water injection, nitrous or whatever else you want.
That would be great to do, or would the other suggestion by klatinn be a better solution?
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Old 01-17-2007, 06:49 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
The next version of Enginuity will be a lot faster as far as loading roms and IIRC, the 3d graphing will be worked on as well. Enginuity's logger just came out in the last release, so it is still in its infancy, but look for updates as well in the next release and beyond. Ecuedit is better in these regards, but be aware that you will not be able save wideband data unless you purchase the full release (last time I checked) and that there are various delays on the shareware version, for example, a 5 minute delay to start logging.
Correct. I paid for the full version months ago.

There isn't one or two items Ecuedit is ahead on. It is so far ahead on logging and analysis right now I could write several pages about it and why I use Ecuedit when tuning. For instance, I can slap up a load vs RPM graph with MAP in the cells and quickly tell what kind of effects changes in AVCS do, i.e. if I'm pushing more mass air for the same boost.

I'm not knocking Enguinity. It's a great tool. I just think Ecuedit, if you're willing to pay for it, is well worth it. It is a superior program. It does more, in a more flexible way, and is WAY faster. It will be a long time before Enguinity catches up on the logging and analysis side of things even if the editor catches up. Being stuck in a Java platform will probably damn it to having CPU and memory utilization problems indefinitely.
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:10 PM   #22
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Correct. I paid for the full version months ago.

There isn't one or two items Ecuedit is ahead on. It is so far ahead on logging and analysis right now I could write several pages about it and why I use Ecuedit when tuning. For instance, I can slap up a load vs RPM graph with MAP in the cells and quickly tell what kind of effects changes in AVCS do, i.e. if I'm pushing more mass air for the same boost.

I'm not knocking Enguinity. It's a great tool. I just think Ecuedit, if you're willing to pay for it, is well worth it. It is a superior program. It does more, in a more flexible way, and is WAY faster. It will be a long time before Enguinity catches up on the logging and analysis side of things even if the editor catches up. Being stuck in a Java platform will probably damn it to having CPU and memory utilization problems indefinitely.
but how much worse is the freeware version of EcuEdit compared to its full version? I think comparing Enginuity with a $120 program is about as fair as comparing my car to a lamborgini murcielago. But if the freeware version isn't far behind, then your points are still valid.
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:19 PM   #23
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The next release of Enginuity will have huge improvements in speed and memory usage. You're right that Java will always be a bit of a hinderance, but poor design (and a bad decision in choosing which XML parser to use) while I was fumbling my way through learning XML is the one huge thing that's slowing it down right now.

I'll admit ecuedit has a lot of great features, and we're working on it. Simple logging is to the point where it is more or less complete, and after that I'd imagine Paul will start working on analysis tools.
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Old 01-17-2007, 08:20 PM   #24
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but how much worse is the freeware version of EcuEdit compared to its full version? I think comparing Enginuity with a $120 program is about as fair as comparing my car to a lamborgini murcielago. But if the freeware version isn't far behind, then your points are still valid.
Ecuedit is shareware whether you pay or not. It's a model that has been around for almost two decades. It's just meant to be a preview with very artificial drawbacks put in to obligate you to pay for a more complete software.

It sounds like you haven't even tried Ecuedit. If you don't pay for it, you get stuck with a delay timer when you do certain actions like save a ROM or start up the logger. I think someone else mentioned the wideband logger is also disabled. Everything else works normally. You should try it. You can open any log file (even ecuexplorer logs) and use its analysis tools. Or you can at least look at the editor.

It's really great software. Blazing fast, feature rich, fairly intuitive, etc. It seems to me it is written from a more better direction. The + and - keys on the keyboard don't make changes that are WAY to large to be useful, so when I'm tuning on my laptop I don't have to manually key in values. It has had fast 3D graphing with irregular column/row gap compensation almost since first release. You can use your logs to trace and draw on top of the maps in the editor, which is just a phenomenal feature. The 2D and 3D log graphing tools are great and can be used for all sorts of cool stuff. It opens itself in <2 seconds, opens ROM files in <5, saves pretty much instantly, has a dashboard logger with alarms, etc. Too much stuff to list.

If you want say it isn't a fair comparison, then this whole thread is pointless. Yes, it is free software vs. pay, but certainly it doesn't mean Ecuedit isn't $120 better than Enguinity. IMHO Enguinity still has a lot of catching up to do. The only draw for me right now is Enguinity takes less effort to get good XML support. For my own car I don't care, I have my own highly customized XML built off a XMLwrite XML from a long time ago, but sometimes on other cars it is quicker to use Enguinity to kill a DTC.
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Old 01-18-2007, 02:03 AM   #25
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Sounds like we've got a lot of work to do to get Enginuity caught up w/Ecuedit, but I already knew that, just don't have the time right now to code.

Thanks for your honest feedback, Freon.
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