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Old 01-18-2007, 01:13 PM   #1
wrx88
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Default Safe to advance timing w/out knock sensor?

I am currently running OSECU stage 2 91 octane in my 06 wrx. I only run 93 octane and was told by another member that my car was running very strong.

Here is a little background info that may be useful to anyone with suggestions...

The map is tuned to hit target boost of 18psi. I was overboosting to 20 with no signs of knock.


Is it wise/safe to advance my timing slightly to make better use of the 91 octane gas I have access to?

Thanks.
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:29 PM   #2
tachrev
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Whats you timing look like now?
If you're not pulling timing, I would set the boost to 20 in the midrange instead of spiking/overboosting to 20, get that under control, and go from there. But that's just my opinion.
I am assuming you meant "with no signs of knock" and not "without knock sensor"...your factory knock sensor is still installed and working, right?

Edit:Just saw you have an 06 with the 2.5. I have not run the numbers on this engine, so I'm not sure where 20psi is on the stock turbo compressor map. My experience is with the 2.0L, so take that into consideration.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:32 PM   #3
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I meant a knock sensing device, like the txs knocklight.

If i raise target boost in the midrange, will that lean out my AFR? I don't have a wideband either, so i'd rather not touch boost.

The car felt a little stronger boosting 20 psi, before i lowered WGDC to get it down to 18.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:55 PM   #4
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I check for knock by watching the knock correction in my logs to see if the ECU is pulling timing from what I have mapped.
Make sure your knock correction ranges are set to something that will listen for knock where you need it to.
Raising target boost in the mid range will put you into different load cells in the timing, correction, and fuel maps.
The information in the fuel map for the load you are hitting will tell you how much richer it is mapped for at the new higher loads.
If you are pushing loads off the map, it uses the last column, and you need to re-scale the map so it covers the load ranges you need.

If you aren't comfortable without an AFR guage, then get one first.

I haven't used a knocklite or anything, I am trusting the stock knock detection system to guide me.
If I understand correctly, a knocklite uses the stock knock sensor, so as long as the ecu is listening to the proper ranges, I am happy with trusting it.


Now....from what I've read, 06 ECU's have some other correction tables and such that you need to take into consideration. Someone with some experience in those ecu's will need to chime in about that, as I have no experience with this.
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Old 01-18-2007, 05:56 PM   #5
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93 octane is better then 91 octane. So if you use 91 you want to pull/retard timing, not advance.
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Old 01-19-2007, 02:45 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoby View Post
93 octane is better then 91 octane. So if you use 91 you want to pull/retard timing, not advance.
I'm using the 91 octane map, but 93 octane fuel, so i want to advance timing. I just want to make sure that advancing the timing a few degrees at most will be safe even if i do not have any special knock sensing device.
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Old 01-19-2007, 03:40 PM   #7
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IMHO get a EGT gauge to keep an eye on temps and wideband for fuel, and use a laptop to keep an eye on your KC values. If you normalise your KC map it's easier to see where the ECU is pulling timing so you can then reduce the timing in your main ignition map.
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Old 01-19-2007, 04:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoby View Post
93 octane is better then 91 octane. So if you use 91 you want to pull/retard timing, not advance.


advance is more.
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Old 01-19-2007, 08:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gethin View Post
IMHO get a EGT gauge to keep an eye on temps and wideband for fuel, and use a laptop to keep an eye on your KC values. If you normalise your KC map it's easier to see where the ECU is pulling timing so you can then reduce the timing in your main ignition map.
I'm not touching fuel but i will change my base timing and KC maps so the KC is 10 all the way down.

Once again, is it safe to only advance timing with out a knocksensor, as long as i see that the ecu isn't pulling timing?
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Old 01-20-2007, 01:52 AM   #10
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I am not comfortable advancing timing without a Knocklite and WBO2, so I bought them both. It is hard to tell how close you are to knock given the extra boost you are running, so I would say that you should get a Knocklite OR be very careful advancing timing, ie in small increments like .5 deg, then log the crap out of it and analyse the logs to see if th ECU is pulling any timing before raising it further.

Have you compared the timing tables for STG1 and STG2? How much of a difference is there?

Buck

Last edited by bucket7788; 01-20-2007 at 01:52 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-20-2007, 10:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucket7788 View Post
I am not comfortable advancing timing without a Knocklite and WBO2, so I bought them both. It is hard to tell how close you are to knock given the extra boost you are running, so I would say that you should get a Knocklite OR be very careful advancing timing, ie in small increments like .5 deg, then log the crap out of it and analyse the logs to see if th ECU is pulling any timing before raising it further.

Have you compared the timing tables for STG1 and STG2? How much of a difference is there?

Buck
Interesting. I am curious why you feel you need WBO2 for timing adjustments? I would think you should be paying more attention to your EGT gauge and knock sensor when adjusting timing. Just curious as my approach is to get the fueling done before timing so at that point the AFRs are where I want them.

Also, isn't knock lite pretty much the same sensor as the stock one? I believe they work exactly the same. The nice thing about knock light is that you know instantly that you knocked.
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Old 01-20-2007, 11:24 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
Interesting. I am curious why you feel you need WBO2 for timing adjustments? I would think you should be paying more attention to your EGT gauge and knock sensor when adjusting timing. Just curious as my approach is to get the fueling done before timing so at that point the AFRs are where I want them.

Also, isn't knock lite pretty much the same sensor as the stock one? I believe they work exactly the same. The nice thing about knock light is that you know instantly that you knocked.
First off, I'm tuning noob. My opinion is based only on reading. I have yet to put any of this into practice.

My thinking- the WBO2 is so that I KNOW my fueling is where I want it- removing it from my worries. For instance, Ride5000 has noted that his actual AFR's are .3 richer than what he has mapped. I plan on leaning out to 11.2-11.5:1 in high load areas eventually (if possible), so I need to know. If I were just going to set my AFR's to 10.0:1, I would not be worrying about WB02.

Yes, the knocklite reads either the stock sensor or can be hooked up to a separate sensor. In the end, it is just another piece of mind item, but it is visual and instantaneous- I can lift off of the throttle right then. It also tells me the severity of the knock- Red is severe or moderate knock. Amber is light knock.

The bottom line is that I'm cautious.

Buck

Last edited by bucket7788; 01-20-2007 at 11:25 AM. Reason: type
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Old 01-20-2007, 04:37 PM   #13
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Im am no longer overboosting. I am hitting target boost

I feel that the fueling for the base stage 2 map is safe enough so that as long as boost is where it should be, i will not run lean.

I think I'm going to go ahead and advance my timing when I get a chance.

Ev8siv from osecuroms said i could get away with running a few more degrees on 93 octane. I just wanted a second oppinion. Thanks everyone.
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Old 01-20-2007, 04:45 PM   #14
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I'm spiking while using that map too, and also using 93 octane exclusively. I bought the stage 2 XPT map but it seems to be way way more conservative than the free map so I haven't changed yet.
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Old 01-20-2007, 05:26 PM   #15
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I use the logger in ecuEdit and set the min value to 0, so if it goes into minus KC then it beeps so I know that it's picking up bad knock. I have the laptop volume turned to the max so it's obvious when logging that the ECU is not happy. For me I like a beep better than looking at a light, just personal preference.
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Old 01-20-2007, 08:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
I'm spiking while using that map too, and also using 93 octane exclusively. I bought the stage 2 XPT map but it seems to be way way more conservative than the free map so I haven't changed yet.
I bought the XPT stg2 map also and I can tell you that it is NOT conservative, especially on timing. I have started over with my own map and my timing is much lower than the XPT map and I am not knocking anymore on 93 octane.
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