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Old 12-27-2006, 09:30 PM   #1
IllNastyImpreza
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Default dry sump oil pump.... how does it work?

ok I hear that Dry sump is the way to go for high RPM oiling....

how does it work? why is it better? do you still have to TOTALY modify your crank and rest of your oiling system for high rpm use?
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Old 12-28-2006, 01:58 AM   #2
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just wondering if its worth getting with an 8k redline...
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Old 12-28-2006, 04:16 AM   #3
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WHAT IS A DRY SUMP SETUP?
Its called a dry sump setup because there is no oil reservoir in the engine sump. The sump is usually quite small and lob sided to collect the oil on the side that the crankshaft rotation naturally tends to throw it. A vacuum pump which is driven by the crank (via timex belt), sucks oil out from this small sump and sends it to an external oil reservoir (normally in the trunk). This pump typically has about two or three suction lines on an engine of our size.
The oil reservior must hold enough oil so the aerated oil has a chance to allow all the air bubbles to get out of the oil.
Then the same pump that sucked the oil out of the sump has a oil pump section at the rear. This then sucks oil out of the bottom of the oil reservoir and pumps it to the engine. The oil it sucks from the tank must be clear of all air bubbles or else your in trouble.
The pressurised oil enters the engine block somewhere so it feeds into the original oil passages. The only thing is you must make sure of is the point you are feeding the oil in at is of adequate size to take the required volume.
The original oil pump may be kept in order to close off the front of the crankcase but it may be blocked off and have the pump gears removed.
Thats about it in simple terms, to complete the system you may want an oil cooler and filter but thats about it.

ENGINE MODIFICATIONS-
There is no need to modify other engine internals such as crank or other oil feed passages in the block. The dry sump setup is mainly an external setup with the exception of the modified oem pump, reshaped sump, drive pulley and a few engine block fittings.

WHY IS IT BETTER?
It allows easy adjustment of oil pressure as you can easily get to the oil pump, it gives you a larger oil reservoir so you can have a large amount of oil which helps with oil temperature.
Other advantages which may not be applicable to us is you could lower the engine in the chassis to improve handling. Theres no oil splashing around in the bottom of the engine which may hit the rotating crank. The suction pump creates a vacuum in the engine crankcase which can help peak hp.
Always has oil supply in high G corners where a normal sump the oil may all slosh to one side and create a possible lack of oil pickup.

BUT-
The system is very expensive, complex, extra oil tank and lots of oil lines, potential for pump belt breakage which will stop your oil pump, high maintenance. And ultimately may not be the complete solution to the inherent problems of oiling at high rpms of the subaru engine. It simply isnt a ideal design for high rpm use.
Oh yeah and the system is very expensive!

Hope that helps explain things.
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Old 12-28-2006, 04:23 AM   #4
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JUST TO ADD TO THAT-
It is possible to have a "semi dry sump" setup. This is where you retain your oem sump and use it as the reservoir. The same belt driven pump sucks from the bottom of the sump and pumps it to a connection point on the block.
Again the oem oil pump is retained only to block off the crankcase and effectively does nothing.
As in the example above you would need to mount a remote located oil filter and cooler. A cooler is more important here as the large volume of oil isnt present and the oil temp in the sump will be much higher.

ADVANTAGES-
Much more simple , lower overall cost , cheaper pump.

DISADVANTAGES-
More chance of sucking aerated oil , potentially higher oil temps , same potential for belt breakage as above , reduced crankcase vacuum which cancels out potential power gains of a vacuum controlled sump.
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Old 12-28-2006, 06:41 AM   #5
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who sells a dry sump setup for the subaru engines? and what is the approx cost?
Jon
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Old 12-28-2006, 02:56 PM   #6
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woa there... way more complicated that I had though... looks like I'm gona stick with stock thanks for all the info !
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Old 12-29-2006, 02:29 PM   #7
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Caveat - I have never used one and know of no one who has, but you could always give them a look.

http://www.accusump.com
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Old 12-29-2006, 03:46 PM   #8
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Has anybody seen an accusump system on a subaru? Think I could fit a 2qt sump in our engine bay somewhere?
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Old 12-29-2006, 06:45 PM   #9
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here you go:
http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com...cessories.html

dry sump system >$5000.00
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Old 12-30-2006, 07:54 AM   #10
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Talk to the folks at Peterson Fluid

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/aboutus.html

They have a Subaru setup available.
They also supply similar systems to major racing teams for several premier racing series.
They are one of the leading suppliers of such systems to major racing series. (the big buck teams that buy only the best and are going after big purse races).

Last time I talked to them over there I recall he quoted a price much lower than the $5000 listed above for Rigoli's setup.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 12-30-2006 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 12-30-2006, 03:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
Talk to the folks at Peterson Fluid

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/aboutus.html

They have a Subaru setup available.
They also supply similar systems to major racing teams for several premier racing series.
They are one of the leading suppliers of such systems to major racing series. (the big buck teams that buy only the best and are going after big purse races).

Last time I talked to them over there I recall he quoted a price much lower than the $5000 listed above for Rigoli's setup.

Larry

+1
Ask for Mike, he's the Subaru enthusiast there. MUCH cheaper than 5k too, I won't post the actual price though.
If you search, there are guys with the Accusump. Mike originally did the dry sump system for East Street or Turbo Trix, can't remember which. He did a few more for STi guys, and he's working on one for me. I want a 9k redline though and guaranteed oiling, for 8k I'd probably go with Accusump, unless you're doing hardcore tracking.
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Old 12-30-2006, 05:22 PM   #12
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already sent a email to these guys
JOn
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Old 12-30-2006, 06:45 PM   #13
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COBB uses the Accusump system on their time attack car. It' pretty high maintainance so I wouldn't recommend it for a street car.
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Old 12-31-2006, 12:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PC tuner View Post
COBB uses the Accusump system on their time attack car. It' pretty high maintainance so I wouldn't recommend it for a street car.
Accusumps are not high maintainance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Accusump Manual
NORMAL CARE
There are Accusump™ units that have been in service for many years and have bores which look like new. The key
to long life for the Accusump™ is proper care and oil filtration.
1. The Accusump™ should be protected by a quality oil filter that does not have a bypass. The filter should be
replaced and inspected at frequent intervals. The life of your Accusump™, like the life of your engine, will depend
on how clean your oil remains.
2. The Accusump™ tube has close tolerances of roundness; care must be taken that the tube is not distorted. The
unit should be mounted so that it is not twisted or bent, however slightly. Do not use the Accusump™ as a step
or allow anything to be dropped on it. The Accusump™ is a precision piece of equipment.
3. Keep the dust cap on the air valve to prevent the introduction of dirt into the air end of the unit.
4. When breaking in a fresh engine do not operate your Accusump™ if it is equipped with an electric valve.
Passages in the valve can clog with the assembly lube that is present in the oil during engine break-in.
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Old 12-31-2006, 02:33 AM   #15
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Quote:
Mike originally did the dry sump system for East Street or Turbo Trix, can't remember which. He did a few more for STi guys, and he's working on one for me.
He did the Easy Street setups. I have a picture here some place of the drysump on the Easy Street car that Julie won her first Wally with here in Colorado. The dry sump sits where the A/C unit normally goes.

Larry
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Old 12-31-2006, 02:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PC tuner View Post
COBB uses the Accusump system on their time attack car. It' pretty high maintainance so I wouldn't recommend it for a street car.
Exactly how are they high maintainance? I don't think I done a single thing to the one's used in our race cars for years. The only thing that you have to watch out for is to make sure that none of the fittings leak or else you will have a mess to deal with. They are an excellent and inexpensive safefty feature to have if you do any track work.

Bill
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:44 PM   #17
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Erm, guys, I have to point out to you that the JDM STIs have been running 8250RPM redlines STOCK, under WARRANTY with the same oil pump we get here in the us...
I'm spinning 8100K right now with a stock oil pump that I just had shimmed for added protection. With my shimmed oil pump I am seeing 25PSI oil pressure at idle and 75PSI at 4000+RPM.
Honestly if all you want is rev to 8K there is really no need to change the oiling system. Just make sure your bottom end and valvetrain can handle it!
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:41 PM   #18
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what do you use to shim it? how do you do this? does this just drop the pickup down further?
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:01 AM   #19
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You put a small shim under the spring for the pressure relief valve.

It raises the oil pressure, by changing the opening point of the pressure relief valve, but also raises power lost due to pumping the oil.

You typically only need 10 psi / 1000 rpm.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 01-03-2007 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 01-03-2007, 09:06 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
You put a small shim under the spring for the pressure relief valve.

It raises the oil pressure, by changing the opening point of the pressure relief valve, but also raises power lost due to pumping the oil.

You typically only need 10 psi / 1000 rpm.

Larry
Good point there about power loss. I wonder what exactly it works out to. I can't imagine turning an impeller that's hardly even 2 inches in diameter can consume over a horsepower or two, even at 75PSI. Any ideas?

Another interesting point to make; Subaru uses these shimmed pumps stock on the Legacy Turbo (EJ 22T); the added oil pressure is needed to feed the under piston oil squirters.

Every time you see a "Modified Subaru Oil Pump" or "High Pressure Subaru Oil Pump" (E.G. Rallispec), that's what the are referring to. The only true high volume oil pump is Jun's; the charge $1100 for a 20% increase in flow.
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Old 01-03-2007, 10:02 AM   #21
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What about the Cosworth pump?
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Old 01-03-2007, 04:39 PM   #22
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Well I spoke to mike at peterson fluid systems, great guy ,great prices and great tip thanks.
This is the way I will be going.
Thanks again hotrod and checque.
Jon
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Old 01-03-2007, 11:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
I can't imagine turning an impeller that's hardly even 2 inches in diameter can consume over a horsepower or two, even at 75PSI. Any ideas?
It's quite a bit more than that. If you've ever pressure primed a V-8 engine by driving the oil pump with a 1/2 drill you quickly realize how much power an oil pump needs. As soon as the oil pump primes and builds pressure it nearly stalls the 1/2 drill and this is only at low rpm pump operation.

For comparison, Smokey Yunick found that a common engine water pump required over 15 hp at racing speeds. I've heard similar power requirements for oil pumps but don't have a specific reference I can find right now.
You can gain 2-5 hp simply by going to a lighter weight oil that is easier to pump, in a racing engine.

Larry
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:55 AM   #24
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ok so I have a brand new STi oil pump, and now I want to shim it. What do I tell my machine shop guy? I'm pretty sure he knows basicly nothing about subaru's
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Old 01-04-2007, 09:04 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IllNastyImpreza View Post
ok so I have a brand new STi oil pump, and now I want to shim it. What do I tell my machine shop guy? I'm pretty sure he knows basicly nothing about subaru's
You have to buy the shim from a dealership. Don't worry: It is very cheap.
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