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Old 01-22-2007, 01:19 AM   #1
JohnnyWas
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Default Impressions: External WG With Stg.2 2.0L WRX??

I just wanted to know what you guys who run an ewg on the stock turbo think of the setup. I've read a lot of threads on this, and a lot of them talk about using aftermarket turbos.

What could I expect to see with the stock td04 + a 38mm ewg?
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:25 AM   #2
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Money better spent elsewhere. The stock turbo doesn't have any boost problems nor does it flow enough to justify an EWG. This is akin to, say, running an FMIC on a stock turbo.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:26 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by powerlabs View Post
Money better spent elsewhere. The stock turbo doesn't have any boost problems nor does it flow enough to justify an EWG. This is akin to, say, running an FMIC on a stock turbo.
that was a thought, but if i were to be running higher boost levels [ie 17psi] wouldnt the ewg help hold and build a sustained reading?
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:29 AM   #4
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it would help... but you would be gating so often... our stocker spools so quick..... i think it would just get annoying
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWas View Post
that was a thought, but if i were to be running higher boost levels [ie 17psi] wouldnt the ewg help hold and build a sustained reading?
I am running 20 psi on the stock non-ported TD-04 with only the addition of the GM BCS. I hit full boost around 3000RPM. I think there is no need for an EWG on the stock turbo but then agian, I have not tried one.

My $.02
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:47 AM   #6
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the achille's heel of the stock turbo is the hotside.

adding an ewg provides a nice "end around" the hotside.

any hardware you'll need can be used again with any other bolt-on turbo.

there are some ewg td04 users around. keep looking.
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Old 01-22-2007, 10:29 AM   #7
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ride5000 pretty much sums it up well. Though an EWG does improve boost control, it is not the primary purpose of it. There are many true boost control solutions and an EWG may not meet the criteria if you are going to boost the hell out of the stocker to say 20+ PSI. An EWG does provide a benefit though and should not be discounted, but there are other options to power. Of course, you'll need a custom tune for this since it wasn't mentioned. Going EWG on a stocker is a tough call price wise though as you'd need a Tial unit and an external uppipe and either weld up the stock wastegate or buy/make a bracket to hold it shut. So in the end, you are going to spend a good bit of money that could be put towards a turbo upgrade. Tough call for sure as there are many pros/cons to consider.
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:33 AM   #8
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Does anyone have some numbers they've put down with an ewg on the stock turbo? I'm thinking about doing it knowing that i'll be upgrading the turbo eventually anyways, but I just might hold out and do it all at once. I'm starting to think it might not really be worth it.
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:35 PM   #9
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Id say do it if you know someone that will weld a custom uppipe for free...so all you gotta do is get the tial ewg and a dump pipe then a tune.

if you do this, you can at least save some money and you have an ewg setup for the future.

personally I wouldnt do it...I boost so much with the stocker it would def get annoying with the ewg
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:53 PM   #10
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You don't have to dump to atmo just cuz you have an EWG. The minimal amount of post turbo turbulance you'll get by putting it back into the DP (which is far less than the post turbo turbulance you would get from an IWG) is far outweighed by the extra exhaust flow you would pick up that ride5000 is talking about, at least i would think so.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:13 PM   #11
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Money better spent elsewhere. The stock turbo doesn't have any boost problems nor does it flow enough to justify an EWG. This is akin to, say, running an FMIC on a stock turbo.
What?

An EWG is going to help ANY turbo car, getting the air out faster any way possible is going to net you horsepower. Why do you think people buy exhausts? Get rid of cats? Well think you're bypassing all those bends by using an EWG.

Its well worth it, power gains are very noticable, I've been running one on my stock td04 for 10k+ miles. You'll see even bigger gains with bigger turbo's.

By the way powerlabs, on my stock turbo I have an Injen front mount, I noticed a difference of 300rpm's in spool up time.... after I port&polished my headers/uppipe/turbo and added a catless turboback, theres virtually no difference.


lol ride5000 i'm one of those stock turbo fools ... Although I'm purchasing a new turbo (Mine is finally feeling the effect of 90k miles and lots of boosting).... maybe i'll get another td04

oh yeah and like unabomber said you should probably get tuned.... i'm not tuned my cars probably going to blow up

Last edited by page02wrx; 01-22-2007 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:49 PM   #12
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What?

An EWG is going to help ANY turbo car, getting the air out faster any way possible is going to net you horsepower. Why do you think people buy exhausts? Get rid of cats? Well think you're bypassing all those bends by using an EWG.

Its well worth it, power gains are very noticable, I've been running one on my stock td04 for 10k+ miles. You'll see even bigger gains with bigger turbo's.

By the way powerlabs, on my stock turbo I have an Injen front mount, I noticed a difference of 300rpm's in spool up time.... after I port&polished my headers/uppipe/turbo and added a catless turboback, theres virtually no difference.


lol ride5000 i'm one of those stock turbo fools ... Although I'm purchasing a new turbo (Mine is finally feeling the effect of 90k miles and lots of boosting).... maybe i'll get another td04

oh yeah and like unabomber said you should probably get tuned.... i'm not tuned my cars probably going to blow up
What do you mean what? Should I repeat myself? Ok, here it goes: An external wastegate on a factory turbo is money that could be better spent elsewhere.
How much did you spent on your Injen front mount? $1000?
How about that external wastegate setup?
A Tial 38mm is $235.00,
A SBR EWG up Pipe is $349.00
Your Tenabe catback exhaust is another $517.00
And you are running a TXS MBC, right? Thats what, another $121?

Allright... So you've put what, close to 2THOUSAND dollars (I'm going to assume you got better prices and these I just pulled up from a quick google and ebay search) into a car that makes what, maybe 240horsepower at the wheels on a good day? Before that MBC makes it overboost and blow up. Nice... Well done.
OK. Now I get an otherwise completely bone stock WRX, spend $350 on a used VF22 turbo, and get that properly tuned with an accessport / ecutek, you name it. It will make more horsepower than your car could ever possibly dream off with that puny turbo, it will cost less than half of what you put into your setup, it won't attract police attention, won't sound obnoxious, and won't blow up because it was actually tuned for what it has.

So, if I may repeat myself... Yes, an EWG will net marginal power gains, but for the cost, it is not worth the investment on such a puny turbo.
Oh, and as far as your TMIC not lagging any more after all the porting and polishing: Sure, but how much would your car lag with everything ported and polished and a stock TMIC?
Mind you, I'm not trying to flame here; its your car and you are free to do anything you want with it. I'm just pointing out that there are vastly better ways of spending your money if your objective is to make your car faster.
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by powerlabs View Post
What do you mean what? Should I repeat myself? Ok, here it goes: An external wastegate on a factory turbo is money that could be better spent elsewhere.
How much did you spent on your Injen front mount? $1000?
How about that external wastegate setup?
A Tial 38mm is $235.00,
A SBR EWG up Pipe is $349.00
Your Tenabe catback exhaust is another $517.00
And you are running a TXS MBC, right? Thats what, another $121?
Bought most of my stuff used off friends. FM $500, EWG $150, SBR EWG up pipe was $200 because I bought the invidia brand new and paid SBR's welder to just weld it for me, Tanabe was $300, TXS MBC was brand new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by powerlabs View Post
Allright... So you've put what, close to 2THOUSAND dollars (I'm going to assume you got better prices and these I just pulled up from a quick google and ebay search) into a car that makes what, maybe 240horsepower at the wheels on a good day? Before that MBC makes it overboost and blow up. Nice... Well done.
My TXS MBC doesn't overboost. It holds boost 10 times better than the stock solenoid. I have an 02 wrx, the only fuel problem I have to worry about is PTFB which is completely driver controlled. I have no issues with the ol/cl delay. However much horsepower I'm making, I beat new GTO's so I'm happy with it .

Quote:
Originally Posted by powerlabs View Post
OK. Now I get an otherwise completely bone stock WRX, spend $350 on a used VF22 turbo, and get that properly tuned with an accessport / ecutek, you name it. It will make more horsepower than your car could ever possibly dream off with that puny turbo, it will cost less than half of what you put into your setup, it won't attract police attention, won't sound obnoxious, and won't blow up because it was actually tuned for what it has.
First off a VF22 is going to cost more than $350, Secondly, to make anything near the horsepower on my car a vf22 is going to have to have more supporting mods than a stock wrx. A VF22 on a stock wrx will not make the power I am simply because it doesnt have the mods for it, sorry. To make any type of aggressive tune and moderate horsepower off a vf22 you're going to need at least injectors which we'll go with the cheapest that would be D-werks. Add $317. Then you're going to need engine management which can cost anywhere from $500 to 1000+ and again we'll go with the cheapest, $500. And then you're going to have to pay some one to tune your car. Again we'll go with the cheapest, Cobb is typically a flat rate of around $300. If you use Ecutek and pay a tuner it would probably be around that, if you tune it yourself you're going to need a wideband to be anywhere NEAR safe which is going to cost another $300. Not to mention all the stock restrictions that would need to be takin off the car to make horsepower like the cat in the stock up pipe, the 2 cats in the exhaust system. So you saying a vf-22 is going to make the power my car is on a bone stock wrx is an overstatement. A vf-22 can make more horsepower than my car, but not without moderate bolt ons.

Why do people buy STi's if they can make a WRX faster cheaper? Not everything is about horsepower. Some people like the sound of an EWG, to each his own though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powerlabs View Post
So, if I may repeat myself... Yes, an EWG will net marginal power gains, but for the cost, it is not worth the investment on such a puny turbo.
Increasing VE while keeping the same ignition timing is going to give you horsepower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by powerlabs View Post
Oh, and as far as your TMIC not lagging any more after all the porting and polishing: Sure, but how much would your car lag with everything ported and polished and a stock TMIC?
I'm sure no matter what I'm running I'll spool at lot faster than a vf-22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by powerlabs View Post
Mind you, I'm not trying to flame here; its your car and you are free to do anything you want with it. I'm just pointing out that there are vastly better ways of spending your money if your objective is to make your car faster.
This is a forum of opinions, no offense taken.
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:09 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by page02wrx View Post
First off a VF22 is going to cost more than $350, Secondly, to make anything near the horsepower on my car a vf22 is going to have to have more supporting mods than a stock wrx. A VF22 on a stock wrx will not make the power I am simply because it doesnt have the mods for it, sorry. To make any type of aggressive tune and moderate horsepower off a vf22 you're going to need at least injectors which we'll go with the cheapest that would be D-werks. Add $317. Then you're going to need engine management which can cost anywhere from $500 to 1000+ and again we'll go with the cheapest, $500. And then you're going to have to pay some one to tune your car. Again we'll go with the cheapest, Cobb is typically a flat rate of around $300. If you use Ecutek and pay a tuner it would probably be around that, if you tune it yourself you're going to need a wideband to be anywhere NEAR safe which is going to cost another $300. Not to mention all the stock restrictions that would need to be takin off the car to make horsepower like the cat in the stock up pipe, the 2 cats in the exhaust system. So you saying a vf-22 is going to make the power my car is on a bone stock wrx is an overstatement. A vf-22 can make more horsepower than my car, but not without moderate bolt ons.
The cheapest injectors are modding your stockers. It will flow 750ccs and is free.
Second cheapest would be running used STI injectors.
I paid $360 for a used VF22 off ebay.
UNTUNED, it made 288 AWHP and 260AWTQ on my car.

My only other mod was a catless turbo back exhaust.
Now, post tune, it is making close to 320AWHP with 309awtq and there is way less lag. I am doing this on stock boost control with the stock integral wastegate of my 360 dollar VF22; it hits 20 pounds of boost and holds it there for a good portion of the powerband.
Would it make more power on an external wastegate? Sure, a little bit. But for those 1000+ dollars an EWG setup would cost, I can sell my VF22, buy a used 20G, tune that, and make 360+ at the wheels. Meanwhile your TD04 is still limited to 240at the wheels, if that, because no matter what you do to it, it is still a tiny turbo.

In all honesty though, I think if I got a 20G or something larger I would probably want an EWG. When you start using turbos that size internal wategates do start becoming limiting and you can run into problems such as boost creep.
So, in my opinion, untill you have a turbo that is flowing close to or over 500CFM, you should stick to the internal wastegate and invest on other mods. But you know what they say about opinions...

BTW you mentioned lag. I hate lag; my engine had a VF29 turbocharger which has a titanium turbine wheel, and I had *EVERYTHING* on my car ported, polished, knife edged, header wrapped, etc... It spooled pretty fast. Then I got a VF22 and, sure, it didn't spool as fast. But you know what? Once it spooled, it was way faster than the VF29. And with tuning, torque peak moved 588RPMs sooner in the powerband. Now I am wishing I had gone with something even larger. You hear it a lot on these forums, but I'm going to repeat it: turbo lag is over rated. I might only make 1BAR at 3100RPM, but there is positive manifold pressure as early as 2000RPM, and who drives there anyway? If I shift at 7000RPM, I've got over 300foot pounds the instant I push the gas down in the next gear.

Feel free to voice your opinion; as you may or may not have gathered I've actually tried a lot of different things on my car (including 3 motors!) so I really enjoy discussing the pros and the cons of what you can do to your car and what that will net you. Here is my ride, btw.
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:13 AM   #15
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Since we are in the realm of opinions.....

Being a guy who tried to max out the stock turbo in the years before Alky and EWG systems were in the limelight, I'd have to agree with powerlabs on this.

Even though it costs a little more, I am much happier with a larger and more powerful, albeit more laggy, setup (I do not auto-x). There is more to it than just peak numbers- for me it is how a larger turbo actualy makes and holds power in the last 1,000 rpm versus smaller snails (like the stocker) that die late in the powerband.
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:39 AM   #16
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i still fail to see how, if you're willing to deal with the noise, a vta ewg is in any way, shape, or form, a bad investment.

it gives you things that an upgraded turbo CAN NOT:

1) it can be used when you DO fit a different turbo. the vast majority of aftermarket turbos out there are bolt on and will work just fine with the ewg hardware.

2) it will not affect spool up AT ALL. you will not find a better low rpm performer than the oem turbo. no aftermarket turbo with better upper rpm breath will come close.

3) it will extend the upper range of the power band--just as a larger turbo would.

ok so #3 is basically a benefit that's similar to a big turbo. but you don't get #1 and #2 with bigger turbos!

there are two reasons not to fit one: noise, and $. if those aren't factors, then what's the downside?

i'm not seeing it.
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:22 PM   #17
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i still fail to see how, if you're willing to deal with the noise, a vta ewg is in any way, shape, or form, a bad investment.

it gives you things that an upgraded turbo CAN NOT:

1) it can be used when you DO fit a different turbo. the vast majority of aftermarket turbos out there are bolt on and will work just fine with the ewg hardware.

2) it will not affect spool up AT ALL. you will not find a better low rpm performer than the oem turbo. no aftermarket turbo with better upper rpm breath will come close.

3) it will extend the upper range of the power band--just as a larger turbo would.

ok so #3 is basically a benefit that's similar to a big turbo. but you don't get #1 and #2 with bigger turbos!

there are two reasons not to fit one: noise, and $. if those aren't factors, then what's the downside?

i'm not seeing it.
No one mentioned any downsides. Let me repeat myself for the FOURTH time now in this thread:

It is money better spent elsewhere

Now let me re-iterate myself for the 5th or 6th time:

The same amount of money you spend on an EWG setup for your stock turbo can be used on other mods, such as tuning and a larger turbo, that will provide VASTLY better performance.

EWGs have their place, but they are just not justifiable on a stock turbo, in my opinion. Get a bigger turbo first, then worry about the integral wastegate not being sufficient.
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:30 PM   #18
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What if you don't want a larger turbo and your tune is already good?
What if you are going for a stock turbo record?
What if you want faster spool that any larger turbo and would like to maximize that setup?
An EWG setup is superior to an IWG, anyone will agree. What turbo it is used on is irrelevant. There are gains to be had with one, it depends on what you are doing. When you do decide you need a larger turbo, the EWG will now suddenly be "money well spent" instead of "money better spent elsewhere".
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Old 01-23-2007, 03:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerlabs View Post
The cheapest injectors are modding your stockers. It will flow 750ccs and is free.
Second cheapest would be running used STI injectors.
I paid $360 for a used VF22 off ebay.
UNTUNED, it made 288 AWHP and 260AWTQ on my car.
My only other mod was a catless turbo back exhaust.
Now, post tune, it is making close to 320AWHP with 309awtq and there is way less lag. I am doing this on stock boost control with the stock integral wastegate of my 360 dollar VF22; it hits 20 pounds of boost and holds it there for a good portion of the powerband.
Would it make more power on an external wastegate? Sure, a little bit. But for those 1000+ dollars an EWG setup would cost, I can sell my VF22, buy a used 20G, tune that, and make 360+ at the wheels. Meanwhile your TD04 is still limited to 240at the wheels, if that, because no matter what you do to it, it is still a tiny turbo.

In all honesty though, I think if I got a 20G or something larger I would probably want an EWG. When you start using turbos that size internal wategates do start becoming limiting and you can run into problems such as boost creep.
So, in my opinion, untill you have a turbo that is flowing close to or over 500CFM, you should stick to the internal wastegate and invest on other mods. But you know what they say about opinions...

BTW you mentioned lag. I hate lag; my engine had a VF29 turbocharger which has a titanium turbine wheel, and I had *EVERYTHING* on my car ported, polished, knife edged, header wrapped, etc... It spooled pretty fast. Then I got a VF22 and, sure, it didn't spool as fast. But you know what? Once it spooled, it was way faster than the VF29. And with tuning, torque peak moved 588RPMs sooner in the powerband. Now I am wishing I had gone with something even larger. You hear it a lot on these forums, but I'm going to repeat it: turbo lag is over rated. I might only make 1BAR at 3100RPM, but there is positive manifold pressure as early as 2000RPM, and who drives there anyway? If I shift at 7000RPM, I've got over 300foot pounds the instant I push the gas down in the next gear.

Feel free to voice your opinion; as you may or may not have gathered I've actually tried a lot of different things on my car (including 3 motors!) so I really enjoy discussing the pros and the cons of what you can do to your car and what that will net you. Here is my ride, btw.

A good turbo back system (like invidia, APS) has been dyno proven to add, untuned 20-30whp. I'm sure there are slightly more gains to be had when tuned. So take that turboback off and take your stock WRX with a vf22 turbo, you're still looking at about the same horsepower (My guess is i'm around 250, I can pull on a stock STi, slightly), only I spool a lot faster than you. This is all irrelevant because when modding your car people don't always try for cheap horsepower. Maybe the money would be better spent elsewhere if you're looking for cheap horsepower, can put up with turbo lag, and are looking to swap your turbo and deal with swapping supporting mods. But the gains an EWG can potentially give you are worth the money, not only because it gives you horsepower and increases your VE, but it gives you PROPORTIONATE horsepower, so when you do decide on the turbo upgrade its going to make even more horsepower.


I can't see you running a vf22 with a turbo back on your wrx and safely making 320whp. Injector IDC would be too high, stock top mount would be extremely heat soaked, so not only would have have to worry about your injectors crapping themselves, you'd also have to worry about knocking and pulling time with that tiny top mount... So, if you're not worried about ruining your injectors and potentially running dangerously lean, or not worried about pulling time and knocking, suuuure buy a vf22 and aggressively tune it on your stock wrx.... but like I said, to be classified as anywhere near aggressive on a vf22 turbo you're GOING to NEED supporting mods.

So to sum it up, yeah the money could be better spent elsewhere if you're looking for a turbo upgrade.

Lol and an EWG does NOT cost $1000+
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Old 01-23-2007, 04:34 PM   #20
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I have tuned dozens of EXternal gate WRX's using stock turbo. It really helps the power band. Expect gains of 20 to 30hp in areas of the map. You still get a very wide power band. Not a bad way to go really.

A 16G with ex gate is a fantastic setup also. One of my favorites is the EVO3 16G with 8cm housing. With this turbo you dont need the external gate. The 8cm spools fast and makes great power.

STI pink injectors will return good fuel mileage and great drivability. A Walbro pump and a free modification to the Fuel pressure regulator will give you enough fuel. Then just buy a map for your ecu or have it custom tuned by someone. The tune is the most important link in all of this.

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Old 01-23-2007, 04:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by page02wrx View Post
(My guess is i'm around 250, I can pull on a stock STi, slightly), only I spool a lot faster than you. This is all irrelevant because when modding your car people don't always try for cheap horsepower. Maybe the money would be better spent elsewhere if you're looking for cheap horsepower, can put up with turbo lag, and are looking to swap your turbo and deal with swapping supporting mods.
Here's a quick video of my speedo. If you can't live with that kind of lag, you deserve a slow car
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:13 PM   #22
V8killaREX
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Here's a quick video of my speedo. If you can't live with that kind of lag, you deserve a slow car
GREAT VID/GREAT CAR...seen the vid on streetfire b4, BUT...you are shifting in the power band, so there is no lag to begin with!

ALSO, you have a JDM motor!!!, not the EJ205...which I just realized and my dreams for turbo lag being over rated were shattered!

Shattered because that graph looked TOOOOOOOOOO good to be true, especially for a 22...the laggier turbos in its "class".

Could you give some more info/specs/vids/etc etc, cause even though its the JDM motor, its still 2.0....
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:25 PM   #23
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I agree with powerlabs for the most part, unless the OP is trying to get as much out of the stocker as he can.
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:49 PM   #24
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meh, i got my custom welded up pipe and used tial 38mm for $250

i think its definately money WELL spent

if anyone can do it for under $350, you will NOT be disappointed /end thread
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:19 PM   #25
powerlabs
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meh, i got my custom welded up pipe and used tial 38mm for $250

i think its definately money WELL spent

if anyone can do it for under $350, you will NOT be disappointed /end thread
I would agree with you 100%, except that unless you are running an MBC, you would need your car retuned for the EWG, wouldn't you? And that would drive the cost way higher.
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