Tire decision suggestion wanted: BFGoodrich

[flyingmachine]

Trying to decide between the BFGoodrich Traction T/A $420 and the BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KDW for $480. Both prices are out the door. I do plan to drive in the snow and dirt about a dozen times a year. Is the GForce worth the extra $$, more importantly, will it do ok in the snow and dirt? Other alternatives or suggestions? thanks,

Traction T/A
http://www.costco.com/Tires/Product....ed=V&Width=205

G-Force T/A
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/fin...99&rd=16&ar=55

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[X-Factor]

KDW 2s....

[bull3964]

Originally Posted by X-Factor

KDW 2s....

He said he was planning on driving in the snow and dirt and you recommended a max performance summer tire?

flyingmachine, the same goes to the KDW as well. Given your requirements, the only tire that meets them in your two choices is the Traction T/A. The KDW and KDW 2 are both summer tires and should not under any circumstances be driven in the snow.

[flyingmachine]

bull3964, thanks for the advice, I wasn't too sure when I was reading the tire desc. Any other choices in the same price range for my needs? thanks,

[bull3964]

I currently have the bridgestone potenza RE960as and I'm liking them a whole lot. You can get them for about $101 a piece from tirerack. Other similar AS tires in that class are the Avon Tech M550, Pzero Nero M&S, and Kumho ASX.

[eurospek]

^ How are you liking it in the snow and rain? Stiffer sidewalls than the RE92? What size you running?

[bull3964]

Originally Posted by eurospek

^ How are you liking it in the snow and rain? Stiffer sidewalls than the RE92? What size you running?

205/55/16

Sidewall is plenty stiff, I would say at least as stiff if not stiffer than Pzero Neros.

Rain, quite frankly, no tire I've driven on can hold a candle to them. They are simply amazing in the wet.

We haven't had much for snow yet this year in Pittsburgh so I don't have a ton of feedback on that yet. We've had a few dustings and from what I've been able to tell so far, they perform quite well in the slick stuff.

I have owned two sets of RE92s, BFG KDWS, and Pirelli Pzero Nero M&S for my daily driver all-seasons and these RE960as are hands down the best out of all of them.

[keirnna]

You cannot drive in the snow whatsoever with either of these tires. The KDW2's are awesome for rain, and dry driving. In the snow you are going to need a dedicated snow tire.

[bull3964]

Originally Posted by keirnna

In the snow you are going to need a dedicated snow tire.

Lets all make blanket statements that may or may not be true.

This trend of people insisting that people buy snow tires if they see a single flake of snow a year is quite annoying. A good all-season is perfectly adequate for occasional snow use.

[keirnna]

Originally Posted by bull3964

Lets all make blanket statements that may or may not be true.

This trend of people insisting that people buy snow tires if they see a single flake of snow a year is quite annoying. A good all-season is perfectly adequate for occasional snow use.

Sure if you want to drive like a grandma. Your statement is like saying turning at 20 miles and hour and stopping at 200 ft from 60 MPH is adequate. If he wants all season tires fine, but he was not asking about all season. That is why I made the suggestion.

[krzyss]

"I do plan to drive in the snow and dirt about a dozen times a year"

Does 12 time a year warrant dedicated winter tires?

Krzys

PS Any summer tires are very poor in cold and snow.

[keirnna]

For me it does, but maybe not for him. Here is my recommendation. Your profile says you live in Sacramento. I haven't lived there I lived further south where there was less rain. If you get a lot of rain get the KDW2's if not get the KD's. Then on another set of wheels get some all season tires. BFG also makes some all season tires that may suit your needs. KDW2's and KD's are sort of more tire than you need for daily driving.

[bull3964]

Originally Posted by keirnna

Sure if you want to drive like a grandma. Your statement is like saying turning at 20 miles and hour and stopping at 200 ft from 60 MPH is adequate. If he wants all season tires fine, but he was not asking about all season. That is why I made the suggestion.

You need to stop generalizing and basing your assumptions about all-season tires on whatever circular rings of crap rubber that carmakers put on the cars from the factory. A good all season tire isn't going to be that much different from a high performance snow tire like the M3 or LM-25 that people recommend so often and does not necessitate driving like a grandma in bad weather conditions.

If someone is driving snow covered roads every single day in the winter, then a snow tire is warranted. If someone sees a dusting to a few inches a handful of times a year, a snow tire is way way overkill.

I'm not even convinced of the necessity of a dedicated summer tire anymore if you aren't participating in some sort of motorsports. I DO have a dedicated set of summer tires, 225/50/16 Hankook Ventus Z212 R-S2 that I autocross on and drive in the summer and the difference on the street between those and my RE960as is minimal (in fact, I would prefer the RE960as in any wet weather.) The limits of tires have gotten so high that highly specialized tires are no longer required unless you use them for highly specialized conditions.

[Patrick Olsen]

I had the Traction T/A-H's on my winter wheels last winter. I was living down in the DC area, so I didn't anticipate them seeing much snow duty, and sure enough I was right. Thus, I don't have much of anything to tell you when it comes to snow (or dirt, for that matter). I will say I was very pleasantly surprised by how well they handled in the dry, and wet performance also seemed to be pretty good. I would have put them back on the car for this winter, but they're 15" and I wanted to use my 16" track wheels rather than my 15" auto-x wheels for winter this year.

And not that it really has anything to do with the original topic at hand, but I'm with bull3964. The overwhelming majority of drivers in southern New England survive the winter in their FWD cars (which are, of course, drastically inferior to our AWD Subarus!) on all-season tires. While AWD + snow tires is certainly one helluva package in slick conditions, I think it's silly to think that "In the snow you are going to need a dedicated snow tire." If you drive like a normal human being (not like grandma, but like someone who knows how to drive in snow/slush/ice conditions) then AWD + all-seasons works just fine. I'm pretty sure I did my first two winters on the good ol' RE92s, but it may have only been the first winter. Regardless, the way my car handled the snow, even on all-seasons, was enough to convince my father that he should buy an Outback rather than getting another SUV.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan

[Blakjack]

I work for a tire company - the KDWS is an all-season tire - pretty good tire, traction t/a is pretty loud but also a good tire.

http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/overv...a-kdws/40.htmlhttp://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/overv...a-kdws/40.html

[flyingmachine]

thanks for the various helpful suggestions. I need to update my profile, I'm currently living in Los Angeles now, but I still make plenty of trip to Tahoe or Mammoth for snowboarding. I also spend quite a few weekends a year camping out in the desert. I think I'm going to go w/ the Traction T/As for now, and if I want to go back to the autoX scene get some dry only tires later. BTW, I really don't think the RE92s are as bad some most folks make them out to be. I've done 2 winters in Tahoe with them, even a couple of autoX for the heck of it. Sure they are no where near Azenis or real stickies, but they give enough feedback to stay out of trouble and even explore the envelope a little.

[bull3964]

Originally Posted by Blakjack

I work for a tire company - the KDWS is an all-season tire - pretty good tire, traction t/a is pretty loud but also a good tire.

I have run KDWS before. I felt they were pretty good in summer conditions (and I loved their stiff sidewall), but they really didn't handle winter very well. They used to be (i'll get to that in a moment) an ok tire to get if you lived some place south and only had to worry about 35 degree rainshowers in the winter or an occasional dusting of snow, but they have two very large weaknesses.

1) They harden up to hockey puck status once you get into the 20s. I had very little cornering confidence in these tires even in the dry in cold conditions. It was very easy to initate a lateral slide on pavement by just being a little agressive on turn in. The problem here is the tread compound. I don't think I'll buy an all-season tire again that doesn't use some sort of silica in it's compounding. My pzero neros and my current RE960as both have silica enhanced compounds and they are utterly temperature indifferent (aside from a little bit of flatspotting the first few miles in low temps).

2) They do not clear snow well. The tread is fine for a dusting to a half inch of snow, but any more than that and they get badly caked. The tread grooves get blocked by packed snow and you lose your bite rapidly.

Now, as far as the "used to be" comment, that's largely related to price and age. Back in the fall of 2002 when I bought the KDWS, they were a good choice if you were looking at an higher performance all season. While in retrospect, I would have been better off with the SP5000 due to the winter traction problems the KDWS has, the KDWS were probably the best performing all-season tire for summer conditions at the time.

It's not 2002 any more though and 4 1/2 years later the tire is very dated. 4 years is an eternity in tire technology and they simply cannot compete with others in their price class anymore. It amazes me that BFG, Michelin, and Dunlop have not updated their UHP all-season tires in going on 5 years. It also amazes me that they continue to charge the same price for them and yet FURTHER amazes me that people still buy them when there are better alternatives out there. The Avon Tech M550, Pirelli Pzero Nero M&S, Potenza RE960as, (and to a lesser extent) Contenential ContiExtremeContact, Kumho ASX, and Sumitomo HTR+ all offer better value than these tires.

[davidji]

I got through 2 ski seasons on H-rated Traction T/As. First season they were great on snow, 2nd season they were OK, start of 3rd season they were scary on snow and I replaced 'em at 33k miles.

I was really happy with them, but chose a different replacement tire that I thought might be even better. Tires are all about tradeoffs (with the exception of a few tires that simply suck), and I think the Traction T/A is a good choice.

[Blakjack]

Originally Posted by bull3964

I have run KDWS before. I felt they were pretty good in summer conditions (and I loved their stiff sidewall), but they really didn't handle winter very well. They used to be (i'll get to that in a moment) an ok tire to get if you lived some place south and only had to worry about 35 degree rainshowers in the winter or an occasional dusting of snow, but they have two very large weaknesses.

1) They harden up to hockey puck status once you get into the 20s. I had very little cornering confidence in these tires even in the dry in cold conditions. It was very easy to initate a lateral slide on pavement by just being a little agressive on turn in. The problem here is the tread compound. I don't think I'll buy an all-season tire again that doesn't use some sort of silica in it's compounding. My pzero neros and my current RE960as both have silica enhanced compounds and they are utterly temperature indifferent (aside from a little bit of flatspotting the first few miles in low temps).

2) They do not clear snow well. The tread is fine for a dusting to a half inch of snow, but any more than that and they get badly caked. The tread grooves get blocked by packed snow and you lose your bite rapidly.

Now, as far as the "used to be" comment, that's largely related to price and age. Back in the fall of 2002 when I bought the KDWS, they were a good choice if you were looking at an higher performance all season. While in retrospect, I would have been better off with the SP5000 due to the winter traction problems the KDWS has, the KDWS were probably the best performing all-season tire for summer conditions at the time.

It's not 2002 any more though and 4 1/2 years later the tire is very dated. 4 years is an eternity in tire technology and they simply cannot compete with others in their price class anymore. It amazes me that BFG, Michelin, and Dunlop have not updated their UHP all-season tires in going on 5 years. It also amazes me that they continue to charge the same price for them and yet FURTHER amazes me that people still buy them when there are better alternatives out there. The Avon Tech M550, Pirelli Pzero Nero M&S, Potenza RE960as, (and to a lesser extent) Contenential ContiExtremeContact, Kumho ASX, and Sumitomo HTR+ all offer better value than these tires.

Thanks for your input, I'll check that out. It think the difference in opinions lies in the age of the tire, BFG has redesigned the KDWS and added some of their proprietary silica/multiple-grade rubber compounds to this tire and it has significantly increased it's performance. 02 was 5 years ago - BFG is pretty good about redesigning their tires to meet new marketplace realities.

With that said I do agree that the avon tech M550, nero and the ASX are good competing tires -

I've had them on my civic for over 2 years now and have never had problems in sub-zero weather nor 4-8" of snow -

But I do agree there are better choices out there - Yokohama Avid and Toyo Proxes are another 2 that come to mind.

[bull3964]

Originally Posted by Blakjack

BFG has redesigned the KDWS and added some of their proprietary silica/multiple-grade rubber compounds to this tire and it has significantly increased it's performance.

Interesting. You'd think they would crow about such a thing but Tirerack's description of the tire is exactly the same as when I bought them in November of 2002. This is why I was under the impression that they have stayed exactly the same.

[eurospek]

Thanks for the input guys, this will help me narrow down the tires, and for my purposes I live in Chicago, and I mostly want the 'peformance' all-season tires for dry and wet. As for the snow, by the time I leave the house, the roads are cleared but I want better performance in the slush and let's say in an empty snow'd parking lot too than I had with the RE92A.

[Blakjack]

TireRack is one of my main wholesalers. They consistantly slack on re-doing their write-ups. Check the BFG website for the latest and greatest.

Remember that BFG is owned by Michelin - as is Uniroyal. Michelin is pretty good about releasing their new proprietary hot-ish compounds to its lower-dollar lines (BFG and Uni).

Case in point: The traction T/A when it first came out had varied complaints about noise - BFG redesigned the tire and an 06 production traction t/a has significantly better wet traction as well as overall roundness has been improved. They spend alot of time tweaking the treads to try to minimize decibels. The traction t/a 06 productions also have benefited from the C3M tread application manufacturing process in which 3 types of rubber for different conditions (wet/dry/snow) are applied to the tire in this proprietary process. Michelin is really top-notch, alot that extra $$$ you pay goes directly to R&D. I run Pilot Sport A/S for my all-season tires and I think the money is worth it.

But I honor your "seat of the pants" review of this tire - I'm a much bigger fan of the G-force KDW summer-only tire.

I personally (especially for AWD cars) like the idea of steel wheels with performance winter tires (New Dunlop Winter Sport M3 is unbelievable) and a set of extreme summer-only tires on your nice rims. Then you do'nt have to settle for a compromise between summer/winter grip. Costs a few extra bucks but a hell of alot cheaper than your first curb-check.

[Rallyroo]

Originally Posted by Blakjack

I work for a tire company - the KDWS is an all-season tire - pretty good tire, traction t/a is pretty loud but also a good tire.

I have the Traction T/A's on 15" wheels and I think they're quiet in comparison to my RT-615's and RE070's on 17" wheels.

[Rallyroo]

Originally Posted by flyingmachine

thanks for the various helpful suggestions. I need to update my profile, I'm currently living in Los Angeles now, but I still make plenty of trip to Tahoe or Mammoth for snowboarding. I also spend quite a few weekends a year camping out in the desert. I think I'm going to go w/ the Traction T/As for now, and if I want to go back to the autoX scene get some dry only tires later.

I'm in the SoCal area too. I have the Traction T/A's also. I have them on 15" gravel wheels. They're serving double duty for the occassional snow and for dirt purposes.

[snovvbrdr]

Not one person has even recomended the Conti extreme contact huh? It takes the cake for what flyingmachine seems to be looking for. and in the same price range as the one's he's already looking at