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01-24-2007, 01:26 PM | #1 |
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Hydra IAT?
Right now I am using my stock location, stock MAF sensor for IAT readings. I am going to a 3" inlet turbo, so I am looking to change my setup. I know I could just run a APS or like inlet pipe, but I'm thinking if I don't need the MAF, why not just chunk a 3" pipe and a filter on there and call it a day? I know some are using a sensor in the intake manifold. Could you please explain this set up to me?
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01-24-2007, 04:46 PM | #2 |
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I have my MAF mounted in the fender well and a straight 4in intake. I havent had any trouble with this set up. Its pretty close to ambient air temps unless you are running no2 on the FMIC.
MAv |
01-24-2007, 04:57 PM | #3 |
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I have mine just stuck in the hole in the fender well.
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01-24-2007, 05:52 PM | #4 |
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Really? So you guys just let it "hang out"? I guess the MAF part is separate from the IAT part and the IAT is durable enough to swing in the breeze? I feel like I'm sounding stupid, I really don't know a thing about this sensor.
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01-24-2007, 06:19 PM | #5 |
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That amber bulb thing you see in your maf sensor is your IAT sensor, the actual maf wire is deeper in the body of the sensor, you can see the wire if you look down into it.
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01-25-2007, 02:04 PM | #6 |
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No, they're saying is they are letting the entire sensor (1 unit, 2 functional sensors) swing in the breeze.
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04-03-2007, 12:20 PM | #7 |
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for the guys running their IAT/MAF in the fender, What are your Air Temp trim map settings?
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04-03-2007, 12:25 PM | #8 |
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Same as when the IAT/MAF was in the stock location...
The point is to remove the air obstruction while maintaining stock-position-like temp readings so you don't need to adjust the air temp trim map... |
04-03-2007, 05:08 PM | #9 |
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I would think there would be a difference in the temp. when placed in the fender in stead of the stock location.
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04-03-2007, 10:45 PM | #10 |
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Personally I would think you would actually want it after the intercooler but before the throttle plate. This would give you actual IAT that would show intercooler efficiency and changes in outside airtemp. In the fender shows outside air and nothing more.
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04-05-2007, 12:23 PM | #11 | |
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04-05-2007, 01:38 PM | #12 |
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If you want it post intercooler, just use the MAF. The stock MAF has an IAT sensor built in that the Hydra uses. You could buy a MAF housing that is the same diameter as you IC piping and weld it into the last charge pipe. Just like a blow-through setup.
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04-05-2007, 01:56 PM | #13 |
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I will do that!! The turbo XS FMIC piping is 2.50" I believe. Do you know where I can buy a 2.50" MAF housing?
Last edited by sean18337; 04-08-2007 at 04:20 PM. |
04-08-2007, 02:16 PM | #14 |
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Not sure why some what to make things more difficult on themselves. Yes you can put your MAF post IC but then it will get contaminated with oil and therefore your MAF circuit may not hold up over an exteneded period of time. Also the tuning strategy we have employed for the Hydra base maps is based on using IAT at the intake. The deteriorating efficiency of the turbocharger as boost increases is actually accounted for in the fuel map tuning. By placing the MAF after the intercooler it will read higher intake temps than in the traditional location therefore leaning out your AFR as you increase boost pressure and intake temps rise. This is not what you want!
You can still run the IAT post turbocharger but you will through away 3 years of a developed IAT curve and have to custom tune it your self as the seasons change to make sure your AFR stay consistent. This is not something than can be adjusted during a tuning session. Thanks, Phil www.elementtuning.com |
04-09-2007, 04:37 PM | #15 |
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hey phil i have a question? it may seem a bit off but maybe it'll help. do you know if the voltages of the iat's are the same? if say these guys wanted to aquire a jdm iat or maybe an older maf and use that instead of risking their maf from debris could it just be switched out without a retune? will the hydra read it the same?
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04-10-2007, 12:47 AM | #16 | |
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06-11-2007, 12:45 PM | #17 | |
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06-11-2007, 04:15 PM | #18 | |
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The only real way you could build an IAT map, is choose a baseline temperature, build your entire fuel map around that temperature, record your AFRs at various load levels, and then as the seasons and temperatures change, adjust your IAT curve to maintain that AFR ratio. Naturally, this would be a very very time consuming process, and subject to many external variables that could make this even trickier. |
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06-12-2007, 04:32 AM | #19 |
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^^^ so...your IAT sensor is in the wheel well I take it?
So, was this base IAT curve designed around a specific turbo/intercooler/etc. setup? I wish i understood better why the IAT seems to work so well in the wheel well with the Hydra. What if the wheel well temp is ~85F and the temp at the TB is ~ 50F?? |
06-12-2007, 09:43 AM | #20 | ||
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06-22-2007, 11:59 AM | #21 |
Former Vendor
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The post above sums it up best. As I have mentioned before, many will whine to no end that this doesn't work and it doesn't make sense. I will say that it doesn't make the most sense other than almost all modern cars take the IAT at the intake these days. I will also say many said it was impossible to make more than 300 whp reliably on the EJ205 when it was first released even though we had successfully taken it to over 400 hp. They said you could not run 11s on the stock WRX 5 speed but we did it. They also told me my stock STI engine would never last with our GT65 kit but 12k miles of racing and R&D along with two Subaru Time Attack championships proves them wrong. We have found a way to make it work well and it is proven.
Just keep this in mind the ambient air temperature determines how much oxygen is available in the air. Oxygen is not miraculously produced or eliminated once it enters your turbocharger. Your fuel map compensates for the inefficiencies of a given turbocharger as boost is increased and all the IAT is doing is compensating for the amount of oxygen that the turbocharger takes in to maintain the desired AFR through ambient temperature changes. The bottom line is that it requires a certain total injector pulse width to produce a given AFR. It doesn't matter if your fuel map has 12 ms of pulse width and your IAT correction adds 3 ms or if your fuel map has 3 ms and your IAT correction adds 12 ms. The end result is still 15 ms. You are more than welcome to install a GM IAT in your intake manifold if this is your preference but you won't have that warm fuzzy feeling like most Hydra customers when they plug in their Hydra and are surprised it runs so well. Thanks, Phil http://www.elementtuning.com |
06-23-2007, 12:51 AM | #22 | |
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Welcome to NASIOC. A comunity of Nah-sayers. Enjoy your stay.
I also got the same thing running gt35r turbos on stock STIs motors. It will exploid instantly. Well it didn't and it ran mid 11s on the stock clutch and suspension. People just like to complain about what they cannot achieve. Quote:
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07-06-2007, 07:13 AM | #23 |
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phil, how do you account for calculating load when the IC temp (and therefore the charge air temp) varies substantially from the IAT?
i ask because i run a utec in SD mode and will be implementing an aggressive ADI setup. when the ADI kicks on and lowers charge air temps 20-30*F but does not change IAT or MAP according to the sensors, my actual engine load has gone up substantially but my indicated load has not. i guess the simple solution is to just tune the ADI fuel/timing maps as if the increased (but "invisible") charge density were there, but i'm wondering if you had any 1st hand input as to the viability of this approach? thanks ken |
07-09-2007, 01:43 PM | #24 |
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I basically answered your question in this response:
"Just keep this in mind the ambient air temperature determines how much oxygen is available in the air. Oxygen is not miraculously produced or eliminated once it enters your turbocharger. Your fuel map compensates for the inefficiencies of a given turbocharger as boost is increased and all the IAT is doing is compensating for the amount of oxygen that the turbocharger takes in to maintain the desired AFR through ambient temperature changes. The bottom line is that it requires a certain total injector pulse width to produce a given AFR. It doesn't matter if your fuel map has 12 ms of pulse width and your IAT correction adds 3 ms or if your fuel map has 3 ms and your IAT correction adds 12 ms. The end result is still 15 ms." It's hard to draw a real comparison between the UTEC SD and the Hydra as Hydra has much finer adjustments for changes in air temp, coolant temp, for both fuel and ignition timing. When I was testing the UTEC SD software I could never get my corrections to work consistently and it was either too rich or to lean as the ambient temp changed. The gaps in the temp corrections make it too inconsistent for finite control over your AFR. It's much more of a coarse adjustment. We just don't have this problem with the Hydra fuel and spark corrections so apply what you read in the Hydra forums loosely to your UTEC. Thanks, Phil www.elementtuning.com |
07-09-2007, 02:29 PM | #25 |
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phil, you should know better than to give me a bs answer.
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