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Old 11-28-2001, 07:26 PM   #1
Jim Lewandowski
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Default History of oil/synthetics from a dino (I'm 40 yrs old)

When synthetics first came out (Mobil) in the mid/late 70's, it was a 0W20 or OW25 (yep, that's right - can't remember which) oil. This was when 10W40 or 20W50 was the most commonly used oil. The synthetic oil was so thin AND synthetic oil molecules are physically smaller in size than dino, that a lot of people had leaking seal problems primarily (don't know about oil burning issues). It was more a W issue and molecule size than a chemical composition issue with the gasket materials.

Fast forward to the NEW automotive performance boon in the mid 80's (i.e. LOTS of US cars had turbo options). A quick history lesson.... The late 70's early 80's was so piss poor that a 5 liter mustang engine only put out 165 HP. They were dreary years for performance. REALLY dreary. Very, very few cars could do sub 10-second 0-60 MPH. Even the 455 trans am was only running a 16 sec quarter mile. BE HAPPY WITH THE WRX (and the rest of today's cars - it could be a whole lot worse)!!!!!!!! Styling was a whole 'nother story of complete lack of execution and vision. Uck. Take a look at the T-birds from that era (or Mercury Cougar, Ford Pinto, et. al.).

Back to the 80's. Because synthetic still hadn't gotten away from the bad "press" about the oil seals/leaks (most of it false), and it was expensive ($3 per quart vs. 75cents per quart), Valvoline produced oils specifically design for turbo engine cars. For example, this blend of turbo oil had more anti-scuff additives (because of the sheer/heat stresses on the turbo bearing) and possibly other things to prevent boil-off, etc. I used the stuff in my '85 GLH Turbo. It was hardly much better than standard dino oil (i.e. non turbo). This turbo oil was only .25cents more expensive per quart than standard 5W30 oil. This Valvoline turbo oil was probably more "marketing" than engineering success.

Having talked to a fair amount of actual automotive engineers, ALL use synthetic (and Mobil primarily) for the more stressed turbo engines/cars. The oil that flows through the turbo can easily reach 300+ degrees F (you'll have to convert that to centigrade). Dino oil's flash point I believe is around 275 or something. Synthetic's flash point is 400+ degrees (and may very well be 500+).

Point blank, engineering oil molecules allows properties that just can't be had in dino oil. For non-turbo cars, use of synthetic is barely a break-even (FTR, I still use it in my wife's Contour DOHC V6). A lot of car mags had some serious studies done of engines using synthetic oil showing virtually NO cam lobe wear (overhead cam engines) and virtually no cylinder wall wear. Dramatic was an understatement.

With turbo engines, the coking of the oil (when boil off/viscosity losses turn it into basically carbon grit) is a real problem to deal with. It turns out WATER-cooled turbo housings have MORE heat soak (i.e. after you turn off your engine) than the GM-style of the 80's non-water cooled. When running, obviously, the water-cooled turbos are far superior from making oil (and the turbo itself) last.

Use friggin' synthetic. Period. DON'T use Mobil One 10W30. It has POORER specs than the 5W30 (both low and hi temp, viscosity, etc.). DON'T use any oils that have a wide W spread. IOW, Castrol syntec had a 5W50 variety. With that kind of viscosity spread, you end up with far LESS pure lubricant and far more viscosity index improvers.

BTW, the national institute of tribologists is nearby me here in the Chicago area. FWIW, tribology is the study of lubrication.

The ONLY reason oil should be changed is because of dirtiness. IOW, the lubrication never disappears but viscosity does breakdown over time. So, I wouldn't stretch my drain intervals at all. I only change my oil when it's dirty. If I've driven a million miles (exaggerating) and it's still clear, no reason to change it.

Synthetics WERE marketed years ago as having 25,000 change intervals. You'll notice that has substantially been backed down to a far more realistic interval.

More trivia: cars running on propane can go 50,000 miles between oil changes because there are no hydrocarbon byproducts of the burn.

Ain't I just full of .............................. knowledge?

JL
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Old 11-28-2001, 10:46 PM   #2
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Sorry..... BUT that was too long for me to read so.... What do you recomend as a motor oil?? (Sorry I totaly dont want to come off as a jerk)

Thanx for the info

Shaggee
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Old 11-29-2001, 09:45 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shaggee
Sorry..... BUT that was too long for me to read so.... What do you recomend as a motor oil?? (Sorry I totaly dont want to come off as a jerk)

Thanx for the info

Shaggee
***
Mobil One as it's recommended by manufacturers right from the factory. Castrol played marketing games with their oil where it does NOT perform as well as it could have. You know, the commercial showing engines running after having drained ou the Syntec. That means they put too much anti-scuff ingredients instead of lubricant/viscosity improvers.

As far as weight, if I lived in Canada, I'd run their new 0W30 for the cold months. I'm still debating whether to run 5W30 in summer (Chicago) or 15W50. I'm leaning toward the heavier weight.

JL
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Old 11-29-2001, 01:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Dino oil's flash point I believe is around 275 or something. Synthetic's flash point is 400+ degrees (and may very well be 500+).
Whoa. Long post and not entirely accurate, such as the above statement. Conventional oil will have a typical flash point of around 395F (200C), not 275F. This number is likely to be higher. Synthetic oil (PAO anyway) will have a flash point very close to 500F.

I think most research has shown that "real" synthetics can have very extended drain intervals. This is not hype. Car manufacturers seem to have the biggest problem with this, probably because they have to deal with enough warranty problems as it is. Extended interval does not mean properly maintaining. Commercial vehicle fleets have really seen huge benefits from synthetics and extended drain intervals.

Quote:
DON'T use Mobil One 10W30. It has POORER specs than the 5W30 (both low and hi temp, viscosity, etc.).
You are joking about this. At least I hope so...

Steve
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Old 11-29-2001, 01:52 PM   #5
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I've read that mobil 1 10w30 has a flash of 470 which is higher than the mobil 1 5w30 flash of 445. The 5w30 does have a higher viscosity though at 162 vs the 10w30 at 147. I can't really say that one is better than the other in all aspects.
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Old 11-29-2001, 03:31 PM   #6
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Quote:
The 5w30 does have a higher viscosity though at 162 vs the 10w30 at 147. I can't really say that one is better than the other in all aspects.
The reason that 5W-30 has a "higher" viscosity than 10W-30 at higher temperatures probably has to do with the added amount of viscosity index (VI) improvers needed to make a wider range multigrade oil. Does this make the 5W-30 better? Hardly. If anything VI improvers are used as little as possible since they typically hinder the oil in other areas and are generally where viscosity breakdown occurs (especially in a synthetic oil).

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Old 11-29-2001, 05:32 PM   #7
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I've heard that mobil 1 doesn't use any viscosity improvers in their 5w30
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Old 11-29-2001, 07:10 PM   #8
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Whoa. Long post and not entirely accurate, such as the above statement. Conventional oil will have a typical flash point of around 395F (200C), not 275F. This number is likely to be higher. Synthetic oil (PAO anyway) will have a flash point very close to 500F.

***
I may be confusing flash point with evaporation rate. I was trying to point out the 100+ degree diff. between the two. Thanks for the correction. I don't have the spec sheets in front of me.



I think most research has shown that "real" synthetics can have very extended drain intervals. This is not hype. Car manufacturers seem to have the biggest problem with this, probably because they have to deal with enough warranty problems as it is. Extended interval does not mean properly maintaining. Commercial vehicle fleets have really seen huge benefits from synthetics and extended drain intervals.

***
Commercial fleets would tend to have a better chance at extended drain intervals because the motors are running far more % of the time than joe average carowner.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DON'T use Mobil One 10W30. It has POORER specs than the 5W30 (both low and hi temp, viscosity, etc.).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are joking about this. At least I hope so...

***
No, I sent away for the spec sheets on all their Weights and found the 10W30 was only slightly better on one of the numbers (can't remember which one). IOW, I think the 10W30 is marketed for people who are oldschool thinking 5W anything is just too thin.

JL
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Old 11-29-2001, 08:00 PM   #9
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how come when i use to goto instant oil change they told me to never put synthetics in my car? Will synthetics void my warranety
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Old 11-29-2001, 08:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by steppin16
how come when i use to goto instant oil change they told me to never put synthetics in my car? Will synthetics void my warranety
1) Probably because they didn't sell synthetics.
2) No.

JAS
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Old 11-30-2001, 12:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
No, I sent away for the spec sheets on all their Weights and found the 10W30 was only slightly better on one of the numbers (can't remember which one). IOW, I think the 10W30 is marketed for people who are oldschool thinking 5W anything is just too thin.
Slightly better in what way? How did you determine that a specification was "better"?

I do agree that 5W-30 is better than 10W-30 for cold startup and probably mileage, too. That's probably about it.

Quote:
I've heard that mobil 1 doesn't use any viscosity improvers in their 5w30
You've heard wrong. 5W-30 uses VI improvers, and more than 10W-30. Period.

Steve
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Old 11-30-2001, 06:41 PM   #12
Jim Lewandowski
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteveS
You've heard wrong. 5W-30 uses VI improvers, and more than 10W-30. Period.

Steve
http://www.forcefed4.com


Slightly better in what way? How did you determine that a specification was "better"?

***
By comparing the 15W50, 10W30 and 5W30 numbers as a set and figuring out if a higher/lower number for a category was good or bad. IOW, 15W50 would have better sheer/compressive strength. The numbers for 5W30 vs. 10W30 showed 5W30 better than 10W30. Come to think of it, http://www.mobil.com I think has a spec/tech sheet page you can pull up.



I do agree that 5W-30 is better than 10W-30 for cold startup and probably mileage, too. That's probably about it.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've heard that mobil 1 doesn't use any viscosity improvers in their 5w30
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You've heard wrong. 5W-30 uses VI improvers, and more than 10W-30. Period.

***
Correct. That's why it's not 30W oil.

JL
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Old 12-01-2001, 01:05 AM   #13
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I worry about my seals being seated to dino oil. I have 62,000 on my car do you think that is to late to change to synthetic? I have heard of problems with leakage and burning when switched at higher miles.
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Old 12-04-2001, 05:55 PM   #14
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I've had two turbocharged cars before. I switched to synthetic after 50,000 miles on both and I got leaks on both.
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Old 12-07-2001, 12:13 AM   #15
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I am going on a 2000 mile drive soon... should i put in the 10w-30 or stick with the 5-30?
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Old 12-07-2001, 01:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jung918
I am going on a 2000 mile drive soon... should i put in the 10w-30 or stick with the 5-30?
***
Product data sheets.

http://www.mobil1.com/index.jsp

Then click on PRODUCT DATA SHEET and scroll down.

One can see 10W30 is not as good as 5W or 15W. I would use 5W.

JL
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Old 12-07-2001, 02:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Lewandowski:
One can see 10W30 is not as good as 5W or 15W
From Mobil 1's Product Data Sheet:

5w-30:
Pour Point: -65F
Flash Point, ASTM D 92: 455F
Flash Point, ASTD D 93: 410F
Kinematic, cSt @ 104F: 53.0
Pumpability Limit: -58F
Viscosity Index: 162

10w-30:
Pour Point: -65F
Flash Point, ASTM D 92: 470F
Flash Point, ASTD D 93: 430F
Kinematic, cSt @ 104F: 59.0
Pumpability Limit: -49F
Viscosity Index: 147

15w-50:
Pour Point: -55F
Flash Point, ASTM D 92: 473F
Flash Point, ASTD D 93: 433F
Kinematic, cSt @ 104F: 120.0
Pumpability Limit: -38F
Viscosity Index: 160

What makes you think that 10w-30 is not as good as 15w-50, viscosity index only? You can't just ignore the rest of the data.

For road trip, 5w-30 has a lower kinematic viscosity at operating temp, so it would give you the best gas mileage. However, 10w-30 is not that far behind.

--
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Old 12-13-2001, 12:38 AM   #18
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Default good post but....

kind of single sided in the post. you should have compared Mobil1, a very good oil, but i feel over-hyped with marketing, to a Quality oil like Amsoil. -i left out castrol syntec because i said quality, but i do like regular castrol gtx if your chosing not to go synthetic. The people at Amsoil have been humbly doing their homework on properties of oil and the whole fluid dynamics of the whole thing whereas i think mobil 1 compensated with tons (and millions of dollars worth) of advertising. Has anyone else noticed that one of the main things they showcase in Mobil1's ad campaign is the viscosity at a ridiculously low temperature? or how manufacturers such as Porsche, and MB use them from factory. but come on, how often do you let your car sit in THAT cold of weather and think that you'll be able to start your car without a motor heater (and 1 prob for the battery)? and has anyone thought that there might be a little politics behind the 'alliances' with the car makes. -what a good ad campaign, i give them credit for making a very good oil, Mobil1, into a 'cult-phenomenon'. Mobil1 certainly makes a good oil but i personally feel it is not the best. I'd put my money on Amsoil. it's less hype, and more R&D, and we all know that it's R&D and not marketing that Produces a great product, but great marketing can make a good product appear to be great in the minds of the consumer. anyways, just check out the amsoil stuff. just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-13-2001, 12:50 AM   #19
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Smile about the 'politic' thing...

it's just a speculation but who knows, it could be happening.

yes, like i said in my previous post, Mobil1 is a good oil, perhaps 'good enough' for the car makes. I mean, i'm sure they dont give a rats' a$$ about what 'brand' oil they put into the car as long as the oil they put in satisfys all their own tests. so now with a few oils that 'pass the test', why not choose the one that will bring a big bank roll with them in terms of marketing and world wide presence? it's ideal, get a bunch of car makers that's made a name for themselves building quality products (long b4 the advent of Mobil1) and have them all put moibil1 in the cars and make a big fuss about it building up hype. Think about it, car makers like mb, which already has a name for themselves, can now reach Porsche enthusiasts and other people who are already familiar with the quality products in the 'alliance'. I mean, a great majority of the people in the market for motor oil has heard of at least one of the makes in the group or even just Mobil, and even if they dont drive a 911 or a S600 themselves, they'll be thinking of the connotations attached with those makes, -What's the first thing you think of when i mention: Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Corvette??

and now what's the first thing you think of when someone mentions Mobil1??? -maybe the fact that they're featured as oem on those high quality cars?

see, so it's a definately successful ad campaign rallying some super-stars in the industry to run your product to instantaniously transform a 'very good oil' into 'the best motor oil in the world period'. -all without chemistry. hats off. but check out amsoil and see the tests they ran that included mobil 1. you'll be surprised.

Last edited by chileewili; 12-13-2001 at 12:57 AM.
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Old 12-13-2001, 09:17 AM   #20
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It is smart buisness and is used to sell everything. There will always be your Pepsi in a world of Coke. I don't think a company can last on just marketing alone, they must also have a quality product to last. Amsoil is good oil and maybe the best but Mobil1 is still a good product.
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Old 12-16-2001, 05:08 PM   #21
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Lightbulb My 2 cents

I think the basic point is that synthetic oil is vastly superior to dyno. Amsoil may be better than Royal Purple which is better than Mobil 1 but the fact is all of these oils are in a class far above dyno.
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Old 12-16-2001, 08:56 PM   #22
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Default Re: My 2 cents

Quote:
Originally posted by Stanley
I think the basic point is that synthetic oil is vastly superior to dyno. Amsoil may be better than Royal Purple which is better than Mobil 1 but the fact is all of these oils are in a class far above dyno.
I think you are over stating a little. People have used DINO oil for years and cars have lasted. Now synthetic oil comes out and everyone acts like it will take a car to 1,000,000 miles. Fact is that no matter what kind of oil you use as long as you change it the engine will last a long long time. I have never used Mobil1 etc. and my cars engine has always out lasted the rest of it. I am not saying synthetic oil is bad but I doubt the difference is very noticable. Just keep it changed whether it be dino or syntheric. This is in the common daily driver, not the high rpm racecars which are rebuilt many many times a year.
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Old 01-03-2002, 01:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteveS
You've heard wrong. 5W-30 uses VI improvers, and more than 10W-30. Period.

Steve
http://www.forcefed4.com
quoted from:

http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html

"AMSOIL can formulate their 10W-30 and 15W-40 with no viscosity index improvers but uses some in the 10W-40 and 5W-30. Mobil 1 uses no viscosity improvers in their 5W-30, and I assume the new 10W-30."

If you think that's wrong you may argue with Ed Hackett.
edh@maxey.unr.edu
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Old 01-03-2002, 01:38 PM   #24
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Interesting dialog.

This is certainly a topic that is important to all of us.

GoodFinder
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Old 01-04-2002, 12:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Mobil 1 uses no viscosity improvers in their 5W-30, and I assume the new 10W-30."

If you think that's wrong you may argue with Ed Hackett.
I don't know who Ed Hackett is, but he is absolutely wrong. There is no argument. I have good sources (*cough*) for this information. And if he's wrong about this, is he wrong about some other "facts"?

Steve
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