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Old 12-01-2001, 02:34 AM   #1
DoinkMobb
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Default Is it my imagination or did higher octane gas make a difference?

So one day I decided to splurge and treat my wee 1.8L engine to some 93 octane gas. Now I swear I noticed a little bit better response from a stop and through the gears. My car is unmodified except for Custom Scratches and A Ripped Driver's Side Seat. Am I imagining things or did higher octance gas really do something for my ultra low performance engine?
Well if it made a difference, that would be the first step in fighting the dreaded NA lag I experience in my car. Stupid tiny engine with conservative gearing...rant grumble grumble.
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Old 12-01-2001, 03:14 AM   #2
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i think it does, all though thats just my butt dyno, but when i put 92 instead of 89 i noticed a nice jump in power...
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Old 12-01-2001, 03:44 AM   #3
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it's all in your head...

Jeremy

my car gets 20 MPG city wether is be 87, 89, 93 etc...down to 19 now cause we are running the winter blend crappy gas
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Old 12-01-2001, 04:04 AM   #4
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Doink, your tempting me now Actually, ive been thinking about trying it cause the gas prices are way down... I think I just might, and do an ECU reset as well
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Old 12-01-2001, 08:07 AM   #5
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I think there is a difference too. I am not willing to pay for that difference but I notice a small increase in power and MPGs. But I notice as big a difference between brands.
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Old 12-01-2001, 08:15 AM   #6
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your imagination... high octane gas should make you get Worse gas milage due to it burning more effiently.
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Old 12-01-2001, 08:18 AM   #7
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No I keep constant track of my MPGs. Just because the fuel does not completely burn, how does that give you WORSE gas milege?
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Old 12-01-2001, 08:30 AM   #8
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Old 12-01-2001, 10:56 AM   #9
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Higher octane gas will make a difference if your ECU is constantly retarding timing when running on 87 octane gas.
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Old 12-01-2001, 11:06 AM   #10
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DoinkMobb--using higher octane gas in a car that doesn't require it won't hurt anything, unless you do it for a LONG time. since your engine doesn't burn that 93 completely as it would a regular tank, over time your engine will build up carbon deposits (at least i think that's the reasoning behind it), or something to that effect.

if you have a LOT of miles on your car, however, it might make a difference. my dad's 86 volvo (270K mi) is supposed to run on 87 octane, but he's resorted to running mid-grade in it, since for whatever reason it stumbles and clatters (even more than a regular volvo 240) when running regular gas. what the reasoning is behind this, i have no idea.

perhaps on an engine that loosely built, 270k miles of pistons slamming around has changed their shape just enough to bump the compression ratio up ever so slightly? makes sense to me.
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Old 12-01-2001, 12:02 PM   #11
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It should make a difference to my knowledge. It increaces compression ratio. It should work if the timing is retarded. Not quite sure, but the optimum spark timing is just before the gasoline is self flamed when pressurised by pistons. Higher octane gas (the mixture with air) can take more pressure before it burns (also known as knocking, all the gas/air mixture burns simultaneusly and might damage pistons e.g.)
Threfore when retarding timing you get higher compression ratio. I don't know can the ECM completely tune the ignition timing, at least my engine has distributor which has to be tuned...


Well that's my oppinion..
Might forgot something...


tony
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Old 12-01-2001, 12:37 PM   #12
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Your computer does change timing depending on R.P.M. and load. also carbon buildup does increase compression a little( or a lot), but also the carbon will glow red hot, which also causes pre-ignition or detonation.
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Old 12-01-2001, 01:28 PM   #13
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Have a Nice Day? here we go again...

Sorry for the length, but last time, someone got pissed cuz I didn't post enough facts.

The SAE and the API (they're engineers so what could they possibly know that a bunch of amateur garage mechanics don't? ) have commissioned tests on "the effect of octane on knock-sensor equipped vehicles". The SAE sells a 109 page book by that same title if you're interested in all the details.

The results of dyno testing acceleration in controlled and well documented conditions with test fleet of regular street cars like a Camry, a Dodge Intrepid and a Blazer showed that over 60% of the cars did better with 89 and 93 octane pump gas than 87.

The bottom line is that your car's knock sensor's job is to detect detonation b4 you can ever hear it and retard the timing. The only way to really know what kind of gas is right for your car is to do a similar dyno test on your own car with tested fuels, which just isn't feasible. Next come g-tech tests or your ET's/top-speed if you drag and next to that is the good ol butt-dyno.

HondaTch is the only one on this board that I know of that has actually messed with his knock sensor and seems to understand the subject. He even posted that his my01 2.5's knock-sensors don't do their job too well and allow lots of detonation. Yikes! If they are indeed all bad, my pistons will thank you for that info, Jeremy.

Below are a bits & pieces that I've cut and pasted from one report done in 1995:
Tests: a chassis dynamometer, temp was 72 F., the barometric pressure was 29.80 inches Hg, the average humidity was 57 grains per pound, and the average mileage was 16,630.
Test of 65 vehicles, including 51 passenger cars and 14 light trucks, and encompassing 9 models or model groups. Acceleration tests were conducted with commercially common fuels (full boiling range unleaded gasolines) at average octanes of 85, 87, 89, and 93, for speeds in the range 10-70 miles per hour.
In general, the report concludes that increasing octane in fuels used by knock sensor vehicles improved acceleration performance. On average, the test vehicles exhibited statistically significant improvements in acceleration performance with higher octane gasolines. The largest effects were observed for tests in the speed range of 40-70 miles per hour, where statistically significant differences of 0.49 to 2.10 seconds in average acceleration times were observed. Acceleration performance was generally improved at octane levels above 87 octane, and was generally degraded at octane levels below 87.
Overall, the results showed that the acceleration performance of vehicles tested was significantly affected by gasoline octane. Most vehicles exhibited improved acceleration performance with fuels at octane levels above average octanes of 87 and degraded performance below average octanes of 87. Therefore, motorists should benefit from knowing that use of a gasoline with too low an octane in a vehicle with a knock sensor could mean loss of power, not knock.

Improvements in Acceleration Times in 40-70 MPH Maximum Throttle Test for Four Model Groups
Car----------improvement w/89----improvement w/93
Caprice-------.45 seconds---------.43 seconds
Intrepid------.61 seconds---------.62 seconds
GMC Jimmy-----.49 seconds--------1.15 seconds
Camry--------1.00 seconds--------1.50 seconds
(improvements are relative to 87 octane baseline tests)
[my comments - note that the caprice's performance was maximized with 89 and decreased a little with 93. So, more is not necessarily better - YMMV]
----------end of cut/paste ----------------------------

Finally, don't believe me. Research for yourself and make up your own mind. I'm not even gonna touch the race fuel subject this time aside from saying, think consistency and quality when performance really matters to you. There's a good gas FAQ on the web,lots of people have posted their anecdotal reports on the web and your local college engineering library may have the published tech papers if you really want to get into the subject.

[Bye now...reaching for flameproof suit...]
john

[edited to make the table more readable]

Last edited by p-car; 12-01-2001 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 12-01-2001, 01:48 PM   #14
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Where can I find the full text of that report? Id be interested in reading all of it?
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Old 12-01-2001, 04:45 PM   #15
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I can anecdotally verify the results posted above. When I was using electronic timing advancement, I used 92 to be safe, but without it, I ran 87 pretty well if it was particularly cold out, but it runs best in all conditions with 89 (2.5l rs motor)
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Old 12-01-2001, 05:07 PM   #16
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Default the great octane debate...

[snip]
Improvements in Acceleration Times in 40-70 MPH Maximum Throttle Test
for Four Model Groups
Car----------improvement w/89----improvement w/93
Caprice-------.45 seconds---------.43 seconds
Intrepid------.61 seconds---------.62 seconds
GMC Jimmy-----.49 seconds--------1.15 seconds
Camry--------1.00 seconds--------1.50 seconds

[my comments - note that the caprice's performance was maximized with 89 and decreased a little with 93. So, more is not necessarily better - YMMV]
[snip]

It'd be interesting to see what the "recommended" octane of these respective vehicles are, and what year are they as well. Which octane the engineers designed to use will determine how sensitive the knock sensor they would use, the fuel map, and how the ECU would react as well as a bunch of other stuff.

I believe my mom's 93 Camry was desgiend to use 89 or 91 octane gas.

Which "octane" were they using as their baseline? 85?

An interesting note about what Kevin posted about the Car and Driver article. Interesting in the fact that they used an M3 - a high performance vehicle that was probably designed to run high-octane gas. Running low-octane gas on a car that was designed to run on high-octane gas will cause it to run poorly. Perhaps they should have used some old beater car and do the test - one that was designed to use regular gas.

Anywayz, in my not-so-humble opinion, my RS was designed to run on 87. I haven't done any major internal mods, so I'm gonna keep on running 87. I get great gas mileage, it's cheap, and I'm happy.

Remember, who does this research and why? Are they oil production companies or consumer reports-type people?

LaterZ!
Darren!!
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Old 12-01-2001, 05:14 PM   #17
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Default Okay, take my statement back...

I didn't read through thourougly enough of the C&D article. They tested a bunch of different cars.

The gist of it, is if your car was designed to run on regular, and it isn't running well, get it tuned/fixed - don't just run a higher grade to cover up the problems.

If you're car was designed to run a high octane gas, use it.

LaterZ!
Darren!!
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Old 12-01-2001, 09:54 PM   #18
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Midwayman - email me

The report states that the Baseline was done with 87. Sorry, I should have included that, so I've edited the original post.

I'm not posting to get into a pissing contest over whether our cars were "designed to run on 87 octane". If you have evidence to the contrary, post it so we can all learn. The report I note is kind of old (MY94 vehicles) and maybe there's better info available. Why bother clogging the board with anecdotal reports like "I think my car runs great on 87"?

The MY00 2.5RS owners manual says use 87 or higher.
My Jeep's manual says 87 or higher.
My 911 manual says use 92, period.

I run 87 around town occasionally and I don't much care if the EM retards the timing so I can't beat the numbnut who wants to race me to the next traffic light. For the track, I run premium or mix premium and unleaded race gas. It may be a waste of money or it may help save my engine from cumulative damage. I also try to run a tank of Chevron Supreme through about once a month, hoping the Techron will help clean out the deposits from our MTBE laced gas here in Kalifornia. On my cars, it's my decision based upon my admittedly limited knowledge.

Finally, another snippet from the same report showing the results from a weak attempt at addressing car manufacturer's octane recommendations using a sample of 18 Ford Taurus with 3 liter, 4speed A.T. where the owners manual said use 87 or higher.
The findings:
30% did not knock at octanes of 86.8 or lower.
60% did not knock when running 89 (that includes the 30% noted above).
40% required an octane greater than 89.
Less than 10 percent actually required 92 octane.

There are no systematic data comparing actual octane requirements to car manual recommended octanes. However, the results from this limited test suggest that individual units of a given car model can deviate widely from design norms.
-------end of snippet------

OK, 40% definitely needed better gas than the manual's minimum reco's. The auto mfr's are probably not going to fund a comprehensive study to see if their owners manual minimum reco's are good enough. I suspect the lawyers are happy with the or higher statement.
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Old 12-02-2001, 12:22 AM   #19
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I dunno, while gas is pretty cheap I'll just fill up with premium. When it goes back up, I'll switch to the cheaper stuff again. I'm assuming it's mostly a placebo effect though - I think it's faster, therefore it feels faster.
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Old 12-02-2001, 10:16 AM   #20
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"I think there for I am."
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Old 12-02-2001, 12:05 PM   #21
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One quote I find interesting from that C&D article: But, noted Schiller, only a few vehicles calibrated for regular fuel can advance timing beyond their nominal ideal setting when burning premium.

When I was a senior in college I took a course about internal combustion engines - probably my most favoritest class ever. One of the things we talked about was how octane and ignition timing affect performance and knock. The professor said that most ECMs were designed to retard timing if knock was detected, but they would not advance timing - you had to reset the ECU to get back to "normal" settings. Now, this was back in '94, and ECM computing power has increased dramatically since then. Yet Mr. Schiller from the C&D article said this is still true.

I'm really curious how "smart" Subaru's ECMs are. Assuming, just to throw a number out, that the ECM is designed with 10deg BTDC as the "normal" ignition advance for use with 87 octane. Clearly, the ECM will retard the timing if it detects knock, that's the whole point of a knock sensor. When the knock goes away, will it advance it back to 10deg BTDC? Or will it stay at the new, lower setting (say, 5deg BTDC) until the ECM is reset? Assuming the ECM can advance the timing back to 10deg BTDC, will it go beyond that? Will it go to 15deg BTDC because I'm using 93 octane and the knock sensors aren't picking up any knock at 10 or 11 or.....? It would be interesting to see some results using an OBDII scanner (which I think can show timing, but I'm not sure - I'll have to ask webkris, who I know has a scanner).

A possible data point: Recently, I dyno'd my car on a 4 wheel dyno. I drove the car to the dyno as it had been for the past couple months - 89 octane in the tank, MRT full exhaust (headers, hiflow cat, cat back). Did one run with the MRT exhaust on the car and it pulled 95.8hp to the wheels. Took the car off the dyno, swapped the full stock exhaust back on the car, reset the ECM, drove the car around a bit, and then re-dyno'd the car. With the stock exhaust on the car it pulled 106.6hp, with HP and TQ higher across the entire RPM range. Now, it wouldn't have surprised me to see better low end torque with the higher backpressure of the stock system, but to see better torque over the entire RPM range seemed strange. Obviously there are a number of variables that could have affected the power output, but the thing I think is most likely is that resetting the ECM made it happier somehow. The car had been to some open track events with the MRT exhaust on the car - perhaps the high load conditions had resulted in knock on the track, and the timing was retarded and never restored to normal? Unfortunately, that's just a big, fat guess at this point. I do intend to go back to the dyno to try again, and next time I'll try to gather some more data (using an OBDII scan tool).

Anyway, enough babbling...

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
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Old 12-02-2001, 02:21 PM   #22
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The major difference in octane grades is compression. If you have a high compression engine (like wrx's) and you run a low octane gas the gas will detonate before the sparkplug ignites it causing knocking and a decrease in gas mileage and performance.

And on the otherside of the spectrum if you run high octage gas in a low compression engine the gas has a chance of not detonating at all. In which case you will simply be blowing your more expensive gas out your tailpipe. Which will result in a loss of performance and a loss of gas mileage.

So overall its bets for your car to stick to whatever the manufacturer recomended for that car. Although if you have a low octane engine and it is knocking or pinging putting a higher octane gas will sometimes get rid of the noise but you should still take your car in to be looked at because this is NOT normal.
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Old 12-03-2001, 05:27 AM   #23
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Default Re: here we go again...

Quote:
Originally posted by p-car


HondaTch is the only one on this board that I know of that has actually messed with his knock sensor and seems to understand the subject. He even posted that his my01 2.5's knock-sensors don't do their job too well and allow lots of detonation. Yikes! If they are indeed all bad, my pistons will thank you for that info, Jeremy.
haha...no problem....it actually wasn't my car that detonated but it was one that i know of...needless to say it's got a J&S now. and mine will VERY shortly

And the ECU's are programmed to Run full timing advance on 87 octane...the only time i run 89 is when i am going to be beating the PISS out of my car...i.e.: the last rally-x and every time i thought i was going to an auto-x(before staying up till like 5:00 a.m.).

jeremy
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Old 12-03-2001, 05:28 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evaider
The major difference in octane grades is compression. If you have a high compression engine (like wrx's) and you run a low octane gas the gas will detonate before the sparkplug ignites it causing knocking and a decrease in gas mileage and performance.

And on the otherside of the spectrum if you run high octage gas in a low compression engine the gas has a chance of not detonating at all. In which case you will simply be blowing your more expensive gas out your tailpipe. Which will result in a loss of performance and a loss of gas mileage.

So overall its bets for your car to stick to whatever the manufacturer recomended for that car. Although if you have a low octane engine and it is knocking or pinging putting a higher octane gas will sometimes get rid of the noise but you should still take your car in to be looked at because this is NOT normal.
you mean high CYLINDER pressure not High COMPRESSIOn...compression ratio is static and doens't change...but combustion chamber pressure does. That is why it requires 93...you are forcing more into the cylinder then it was designed to breath N/A.

jeremy
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Old 12-03-2001, 09:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by tonytiger
It should make a difference to my knowledge. It increaces compression ratio. It should work if the timing is retarded. Not quite sure, but the optimum spark timing is just before the gasoline is self flamed when pressurised by pistons. Higher octane gas (the mixture with air) can take more pressure before it burns (also known as knocking, all the gas/air mixture burns simultaneusly and might damage pistons e.g.)
Threfore when retarding timing you get higher compression ratio. I don't know can the ECM completely tune the ignition timing, at least my engine has distributor which has to be tuned...


Well that's my oppinion..
Might forgot something...


tony
Wow, so to increase CR, I should get different gas right? What planet does this gas exist on?

Really now...timing advance/retard has nothing to do with CR...atleast not to my knowlege...timing is your cams..CR is your pistions...

-justin
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