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Old 02-12-2007, 11:04 AM   #1
digitalseance
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Default ESP - The competition

So I was reading the BSP Competition thread and decided that us 2.0L need our own for ESP.

How do you think the 2L will hold up in ESP against the Cobras, mustangs, ss cameros, DSMs, etc?

Now that boost isn't regulated in SP, items such as the UTEC are legal and really help out for horsepower, but even modded out to the extent of the rules the WRX is still down compared to the SS Camero (325 stock from the factory). AWD can help but on dry pavement with stickies, I see little benefit.

I'm planning on running in the divisional series and might make a stop at a national tour or two. I've got about 5 years of auto-x experience but only 1 in the wrx and it was all in D-Stock where it was not competitive on the divisional level against the ACR SRT-4.

What do you guys think? What should I be on the lookout for when looking at the other guys in my class?
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:13 AM   #2
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Fender flares. Wider wheels. Big rubber. No cats. Suspension. Lighten the car up as much as possible, seats, etc...

Then, drop a 2.5L in the '02/'03 WRX (greatest weight savings), then.... UTEC or some tune similar. 100 octane. Water injection.

If I still had my wagon, that's what I'd do. If I had about $20K to buy a used WRX (preferrably with a salvage title... dirt cheap) and then do what needed to be done, it'd be a national contender.

Who knows, some day I just might be back, if I can find some $$ somehow.

--kC
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:12 PM   #3
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I think the question in everyone's mind is what's going to come of a re-organized SP in the next year or so. Little birdy told me don't spend your money on a WRX ESP build because it will be wasted. Our resident SPAC member might be able to chime in on that.

I too think it could be a national contender in ESP, I'm just not ready to throw the bucks at it and do the irreversable mods like the fender flares.
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:23 PM   #4
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Pete's been doing fairly well locally. He's our '06 CSCC ESP Champ. He did beat Christine Berry a while back while she drove the Eguina ESP Camaro that her dad Tom co-drove at '06 Nationals. Pete's now on 275 710's. We were looking for an interesting show down with Michael Eguina yesterday, driving the same max'ed out ESP Camaro, but our event got cancelled because of rain(!). Christine is our PAX Ladies '06 CSCC Champ with that Camaro, and Tom is our Open Pax Champ (now driving the BSP Evo).

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Old 02-12-2007, 12:29 PM   #5
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good to see others thinking....

Let me help out here..

Cars that are in ESP:

Street Prepared Class E

AMC
AMX & Javelin (all)

Audi
5000 Turbo & 5000 Turbo
Quattro & 200 & 200
Quattro
A8 & A8 Quattro
V8 Quattro

BMW
2500 & 2800 (all)
3.OS & CS (all)
528 & 530 & 533 (all)
633i & 733i (all)

Chevrolet/Pontiac/Buick/Oldsmobile
Camaro/Firebird (’67-’70)
Camaro/Firebird, all (’70½-’81)
Camaro/Firebird & Firehawk,
NOC (’82-’92) (3rd gen)
Camaro/Firebird & SS &
Firehawk & WS6, NOC (’93-
’02) (4th gen)
Chevelle (’64-’67)
Chevelle (’68-’72)
Corvair Yenko Stage I, II, III (all)
Lumina
Monza V8 & Skyhawk V6
Reatta
Regal V6 & V8 RWD (’80-’88)
Starfire V6 & Sunbird V6 (all)
Trans Am Turbo (’82-’92)
GTO 04-07

Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth
Barracuda (‘65-’69)/Dart/
Valiant/Duster (‘63-’76) [Abody]
Barracuda & Challenger (‘70 -
74) [E-body]
Challenger 6-cyl & V8 (NOC)
Conquest Turbo
Laser all turbo (‘89-’99)
Stealth non-turbo
Dodge
Dakota (‘97-’04)
Dodge / Mitsubishi / Eagle
Colt / Mirage (‘84-’88)
Colt / Mirage / Summit (‘89-
’92)
Colt / Mirage / Summit (‘93-
’96)
Mirage (‘97-’02)

Eagle
Talon all turbo (‘89-’99)

Ferrari
400 America (all)
500 Superfast (all)

Ford/Mercury
Capri Turbo 4
Cougar (’65-’70)
Cougar (’71-’74)
Mustang (’64-1/2-’66)
Mustang & Cougar (‘67-’68)
Mustang & Cougar (’69-’70)
Mustang & Cougar (’71-’73)
Mustang II, all (’74-’78)
Mustang & SVO & Cobra R, V6 & V8 (’79-’93)
Mustang (‘94-’04) all NOC
including Cobra, Cobra R(SN95)
Mustang (‘05+) (S197)
Taurus SHO
Thunderbird & Cougar, all (‘83-’88)
Thunderbird & Cougar, all (’89-’97)

Infiniti
G35
M30
Q45

Jaguar
XJS (all)
Sedans, 6 & 12-cyl.
XK 120 & 140 &150 &160

Lexus
250
400

Mazda
929
MazdaSpeed 6

Mercedes
230SL & 250SL & 280SL (all)
350SL & 380SL & 450SL (all)
173
220 & 230 & 250 & 280
Sedans (all)
280 4.5 Sedans & 300 6.3
Sedans (all)

Mitsubishi
Eclipse all turbo (‘89-’99)
Starion Turbo
3000 GT non-Turbo

Nissan
300ZX non-turbo (’84-’89)
300ZX non-turbo (’90+)

Peugeot
405

Saab
SPG (16V & Turbo)

Saleen
Mustang 302 & 351 nonsupercharged
(’84-’93)

Shelby
GT350 (’65-’66)
GT350, GT500 (’67+)

Subaru
Forester 2.5XT
Legacy 2.5GT(‘05+)
WRX

Toyota
Supra non-turbo (’87-’92)
Supra non-turbo (’93+)
Supra Turbo (pre-’87)
Supra Turbo (’87-92)

Volvo
700 Series (all)
800 Series (all)
S60 & V70

All American inline 6, V6 and V8
sedans and pick-ups not otherwise
classified. Other sedans over 3.0L
not otherwise classified. (See Section
15.1.C for update/backdate
limitations.)
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:37 PM   #6
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interesting note.....a ESP G35 isnt' the same as BSP Z?????
especially with the track pack...is there significant weight difference between the 2???

ESP in our region has heated up this year...new blood...we have 5 WRX's in ESP trim at our locals....the lone GTO, Mustang, Camaro drivers Swooon over if any of those guys have r compounds....and...let out a sigh of relief when all them are on street tires........

but couple of the ESP WRX's are starting to figure out that once they get 'R's they are completly competive..

Bill
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:42 PM   #7
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Cars that COULD Make noise in ESP if Prepped right

Audi Quattro
BMW 528
Chevy Camaro
Ford Mustang/Cobra
Pontiac GTO
Mitsu Eclipe AWD/Turbo
Mazdaspeed 6....
Saab....Swedish iron baby..
Subaru...All


That Forester is my hero....my that looks awesome..

Bill
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:46 PM   #8
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I'll let you know how close I can get to Strano at our next event in my mid-prepped 06 WRX with 275 notReallyMadeForAutocrossRcomps
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:51 PM   #9
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You guys cancel events for rain? You got to be kidding me. Please tell me there was really bad lightning.

That car in the picture doesn't look like a very serious ESP effort. I know how fast KC's STX WRX was, and I know how fast the DSM at nats is when it's not eating turbos. On the new Nats surface, an ESP WRX would eat anything with a live axle.

The power of the camaro is impressive, but the gearing is not. Once you compare the gearing of the WRX to that of the camarostangs you realize that the WRX has a lot going for it.

Of course, with the new "best of breed" philosophy, one has to wait and see what the changes are going to mean to SP. IMO, anyone currently building a new car for SP is nuts.
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Old 02-12-2007, 01:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
I'll let you know how close I can get to Strano at our next event in my mid-prepped 06 WRX with 275 notReallyMadeForAutocrossRcomps
Good luck. I saw him demolish everyone's times at the Philly/AI Shootout. Hard to imagine a WRX that could keep up.
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Old 02-12-2007, 01:04 PM   #11
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Good luck. I saw him demolish everyone's times at the Philly/AI Shootout. Hard to imagine a WRX that could keep up.
Yep I was there (in STU though). Demolish is a good description. Were you there the day he drove Neary's car and smoked everybody too?
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Old 02-12-2007, 01:05 PM   #12
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Add onto my above list of things to do with "better diffs in the front and the rear". I think a WRX could even do it this year. (And I would *love* to see the traditional ESP people piss and moan about it too).

And that's probably one of the reasons not to go crazy, because if you do well enough at a national level, you'll get moved out of the class most likely. Pony car people, for the most part, really dislike snails on 4 bangers.

--kC
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Old 02-12-2007, 01:14 PM   #13
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hmmmmmm...potential....powerful word....


2.5 block
Bigger TMIC
Exhaust
Tune
suspension
275+ tires...
front, center, rear Diff
PPG Gear set..


KC..sounds awesome...
we have a used 02 WRX wagon...in White...
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Old 02-12-2007, 01:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby South View Post
hmmmmmm...potential....powerful word....


2.5 block
Bigger TMIC
Exhaust
Tune
suspension
275+ tires...
front, center, rear Diff
PPG Gear set..


KC..sounds awesome...
we have a used 02 WRX wagon...in White...
See? now yer thinkin'!

I saw this years ago and was hoping to just run the wagon in ESP. In 2004, I started the season out in ESP as a matter of fact...
http://www.ner.org/solo/results/04/s...ent1_class.pdf (anyone recognize that talon?)
http://www.ner.org/solo/results/04/s...ent2_class.pdf

Then went back to STX when I saw cubic dollars starting to add up and just said the heck with it.





--kC
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Old 02-12-2007, 01:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo-x View Post
You guys cancel events for rain? You got to be kidding me. Please tell me there was really bad lightning.

That car in the picture doesn't look like a very serious ESP effort. I know how fast KC's STX WRX was, and I know how fast the DSM at nats is when it's not eating turbos. On the new Nats surface, an ESP WRX would eat anything with a live axle.

The power of the camaro is impressive, but the gearing is not. Once you compare the gearing of the WRX to that of the camarostangs you realize that the WRX has a lot going for it.

Of course, with the new "best of breed" philosophy, one has to wait and see what the changes are going to mean to SP. IMO, anyone currently building a new car for SP is nuts.

That would be me in the pictured Forester.
I am curious on what does not look so serious in the picture?

I can go into detail of my 1.5 years worth of tuning and modding if need be. The biggest areas still stock(not serious) in my case are diffs and intake system, i.e. intercooler and TGV's and the like. I have a gutted R160 waiting for a cusco diff., just not certain I want to spend the time or money to do all of the diffs. Do you think it would be stupid to just try out the rear diff upgrade without the center and front?? My biggest issues in putting down power is just that, I spin both inside wheels mid corner when trying to power out of the corners, mainly on tightish med. speed type corners. LFBing has helped, just started that about 2 months ago. Also, the wider rubber seems to help some too. Went from 245's to 275's just in the last month.

Stupid rain this weekend messed up my suspension tuning plans. I am basically using the same formula of spring rates and sways and the like as other Nationally cometitve WRX's from our area. I am just not as high dollar in the damper department as they are. I am rolling on Megan Racing Track dampers in the rear, just added a week ago and Track versions in the front, 8K/10K F/R respectively. Looking to tryout 10/12 soon. This being my DD, those choices are tough, on my azz of course...
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Yep I was there (in STU though). Demolish is a good description. Were you there the day he drove Neary's car and smoked everybody too?
No, I missed that.
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:10 PM   #17
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I am curious on what does not look so serious in the picture?
Stickers. You need a lot of stickers to be serious
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea View Post
Stickers. You need a lot of stickers to be serious


--kC
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:27 PM   #19
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A serious ESP effort =

'02 Sedan
2.5l swap
315's at all four corners
Flares to fit monster wheels and tires
etc.

Oh, and stickers. A forester on stickies with some suspension and bolt on's doesn't equal serious to me. That would be a car that is anywhere from 2-5 seconds slower then the build KC is talking about.

How in the world would the PPG gearset be legal? You can't touch the gears in the box, and the box has to have started out as a legal through ud/bd original. Short of changing the diff, you can't touch anything else. And right there is the big achilles heel to a WRX, though it seems the newer 2.5l cars aren't having as much trouble with the gearbox going kablooie.
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea View Post
Stickers. You need a lot of stickers to be serious



I was hoping no one would point out the two cones, one under the front right and the smallish part showing behind and under the chassis

This was a "private" session, no stickers or numbers needed.....
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:31 PM   #21
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Not to take anything away from you, it could be a serious effort by your standards.

However, as solo-x stated, a full on assault for national level supremacy starts with an '02/'03 WRX sedan, then go from there. It's the lightest of them all.

And it needs a wing. A big wing. BIIIG ricerific wing.

--kC
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:37 PM   #22
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^^^ I noticed that....but good on ya anyways.....(I don't know...looked Serious enough to me)...

Oh..and I think 315's on Subaru Forester would be crazy.
I just don't think thats the optimum tire size for that car....Tooo wide...and your hitting gates with the tires...have wheel bearing issues, adding unescesssary weight...and slowing down steering response...

275 or 295 is about perfect ....more nimble...and narrower...to navigate the tight stuff...

Bill
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
Not to take anything away from you, it could be a serious effort by your standards.

However, as solo-x stated, a full on assault for national level supremacy starts with an '02/'03 WRX sedan, then go from there. It's the lightest of them all.

And it needs a wing. A big wing. BIIIG ricerific wing.

--kC

Actually the XT Forester is lighter by about 50lbs.. Forester XT weighs in at: 3040 lbs curb weight...

Bill
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
Not to take anything away from you, it could be a serious effort by your standards.

However, as solo-x stated, a full on assault for national level supremacy starts with an '02/'03 WRX sedan, then go from there. It's the lightest of them all.

And it needs a wing. A big wing. BIIIG ricerific wing.

--kC

In race trim, I am around 3000lbs(no Driver) now. Give or take 10.
Looking at the OE specs, the delta is 65 lbs compared to the 2003 WRX sedan. That difference is mainly in the fact that I have a FULL size Steel spare weighing in at a hefty 50 Lbs.
Not sure how much the dinky one weighs in the sedan to compare further.

I do follow your thoughts on the serious comment though.
Just trying to dispell the weight difference assumptions.
Most people think that a Forester has to be 200+ lbs heavier than a sedan.

My gearing will be fun at the upcoming El Toro Pro Solo.
The 2004 Forester has the shortest first gear of all Subarus on the road possibly.
On 615's at the 2006 Atwater pro I pulled a 1.76 60 foot
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:44 PM   #25
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Oh yeah...that too....Gearing...4.44 vs 3.90
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