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Old 02-19-2007, 08:50 AM   #1
NYCshopper
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Default Honda says odometers on 6M cars click off mileage at too-quick pace

Honda says odometers on 6M cars click off mileage at too-quick pace

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...ter-usat_x.htm



Quote:
Honda (HMC) is notifying 6 million owners of Hondas and Acuras that they are entitled to warranty extensions and, in some cases, payments because odometers in their vehicles rolled up miles too fast.

That made warranties expire too soon and hit some lease customers with excess-mileage penalties.

A lawyer in the lawsuit that resulted in Honda's moves now is aiming at Nissan, alleging that its Altima sedans back to 2002 roll up miles 2.5% to 3% too fast. Nissan (NSANY) has filed a motion to dismiss the lawsuit but wouldn't say more because it doesn't comment on pending litigation.

The lawyer, James Holmes of Henderson, Texas, says he's tested Toyotas (TM) and, oddly, found them to routinely register slightly fewer miles than actually driven. Detroit brands, he says, "by and large are perfect."

Holmes suspects odometers deliberately are set fast to help automakers trim warranty costs. But the car companies say they're just following an industrywide standard that allows a few percent variation in odometer accuracy.

The Society of Automotive Engineers' voluntary standard is plus or minus 4%, or no more than 4 miles high or low in every 100 miles. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says it doesn't regulate odometer accuracy.

Honda says its odometers were accurate to within 3.75% on the high side and 1% on the low side, within the SAE standard. But it says it will extend the warranty mileage 5% and will pay lease-mileage penalties due to fast odometers, at least $6 million just for overcharges on vehicles leased directly from Honda.

Holmes says the fault was noted by Jay Kutchka, a Fort Smith, Ark., lawyer who drove a Honda Odyssey.

Holmes said that once the lawyers investigated, "It was always something like this: 'I used to drive a Mazda, and it was 342 miles to Grandma's. Now I have a Honda, and it's 352 miles.' "

"No odometer is going to be perfect," says Honda spokesman Chris Martin. But prompted by the class-action lawsuit, Honda realized, "The customer expectation is that it would be based on zero. We weren't. So we decided to settle the suit."

Starting with '07 models, Honda tightened its odometer accuracy and centered in on 0%, Martin says.

A U.S. district court in Texas will accept or reject the settlement, probably this summer. Holmes says it's rare for a settlement not to be approved.

Vehicles covered in the deal: 2002 to 2006 Hondas and Acuras bought from April 13, 2002, to Nov. 7, 2006. Some 2007 Honda Fits also are included.
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:10 AM   #2
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Could this have anything to do with metric to standard unit conversion truncation error? Doesn't seem like a huge deal if the accepted standard is +/- 4%.
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:14 AM   #3
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People will bitch about anything, but if domestic can figure it out, I see no reason that Honda and Nissan can't.
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:17 AM   #4
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When there is money revolving around odometer readings then there needs to be accuracy. But how accrate can the actually get? If you make a left turn the the mileage will vary, and vice versa. Wheel spin when turning is different for all four wheels.

Also, mileage will have a slight variation based on the differences in tire wear. And changing tire brands will have an effect on the circumference of the tire and change the odometer reading as well.
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:59 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisarella View Post
When there is money revolving around odometer readings then there needs to be accuracy. But how accrate can the actually get? If you make a left turn the the mileage will vary, and vice versa. Wheel spin when turning is different for all four wheels.

Also, mileage will have a slight variation based on the differences in tire wear. And changing tire brands will have an effect on the circumference of the tire and change the odometer reading as well.
But then, other auto makers are able to get it right with the same variables factored in.
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Old 02-19-2007, 10:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kookaburra View Post
But then, other auto makers are able to get it right with the same variables factored in.
Quote:
The lawyer, James Holmes of Henderson, Texas, says he's tested Toyotas (TM) and, oddly, found them to routinely register slightly fewer miles than actually driven. Detroit brands, he says, "by and large are perfect."
How right is right? How many domestic samples has he tested? What is the margin of error for HIS error measurements? What the hell does "by and large perfect" mean in a statistical research? What an assclown.

People need to get real. Most people don't even inflate their tires right, and ride on their tires until they are practically shiny. All these things factored in, 3~4% sounds damn reasonable to me.

P.S. I bet you get much worse error in the actual output of the engine vs. what's advertised. So who should we sue now?
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:00 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
How right is right? How many domestic samples has he tested? What is the margin of error for HIS error measurements? What the hell does "by and large perfect" mean in a statistical research? What an assclown.

People need to get real. Most people don't even inflate their tires right, and ride on their tires until they are practically shiny. All these things factored in, 3~4% sounds damn reasonable to me.
Naive thinking. Don't you think Honda lawyers would have checked other brands to rebut this case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
P.S. I bet you get much worse error in the actual output of the engine vs. what's advertised. So who should we sue now?
A few years back Hyundai was forced to restate engine output on Elantra.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:03 AM   #8
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I wish someone who actually KNOWS about this stuff chimes in instead of people pulling stuff out of their arse.

I have more questions than answers with this because regardless whether tires are not inflated right, it doesn't change the measurement of distance. Before you know it, someone is going to mention that a misalignment can change the odometer reading.

Although the 'domestic' comment is too general and needs some specifics.

I just want to know HOW is this really measured.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:08 AM   #9
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When warranty and extended warranty coverage is on the line...yeah 3.75% matters a whole hell of a lot!! You fork out enough cash month after month for the car thats covered for X amount of miles... thats what you expect to get out of your car... not anything less. I for one own an acura that falls in this grey area. I would love the 500miles added that i payed for.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:12 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kookaburra View Post



A few years back Hyundai was forced to restate engine output on Elantra.
'member the RX-8??


anyway.. look at it this way..

say you LEASE a car.. for 10K miles per year.. for 4 years... and for calculations sake... you rack up 12K miles/year.. on the odo.. and your over-mileage charge is $.15/mile... and you have a car with a 4% error.


12000 X .96 = 11520 Actual miles.

so 480 miles over..
480 X .15 = $72 x 4 years. = $288 over paid.

I think this is where people have a problem with the error.

a friend of mine just ordered a new 2.5i to lease.. I think I may advise them to up-size the tires..
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:12 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BigElm View Post
I wish someone who actually KNOWS about this stuff chimes in instead of people pulling stuff out of their arse.

I have more questions than answers with this because regardless whether tires are not inflated right, it doesn't change the measurement of distance. Before you know it, someone is going to mention that a misalignment can change the odometer reading.

Although the 'domestic' comment is too general and needs some specifics.

I just want to know HOW is this really measured.
I'm not really sure what you are saying. Under inflated tires have a smaller rolling diameter, therefore travel a shorter distance per revolution. Because odometers calculate distance based on a known travel distance per revolution, the final calculation could be off by something. Is this not true? I've not bothered to do the math to find out if this is appreciable, but I suppose it's possible.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:14 AM   #12
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This would never affect the vast majority of members on this board since we tend to buy different size whees/ tires.

Even a 5 mm difference in diameter will make a difference in mileage.

-Mike.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:32 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastResort View Post
Under inflated tires have a smaller rolling diameter, therefore travel a shorter distance per revolution.

Do they really?

Take a fully inflated tire, cut it and lay the tread out, it will measure x inches as the circumference.

Take a deflated tire and do the same. Where's the difference.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by mbs627 View Post
Do they really?

Take a fully inflated tire, cut it and lay the tread out, it will measure x inches as the circumference.

Take a deflated tire and do the same. Where's the difference.
Doesn't work that way. You need to check the tire fully loaded. It seems pretty intuitive that tire under lower pressure deforms more, therefore has a shorter radius, and diameter.

Here is a an article that discuss air down tires for us in sand, but has a good diagram.
http://www.4x4now.com/sfjun96.htm
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastResort View Post
I'm not really sure what you are saying. Under inflated tires have a smaller rolling diameter, therefore travel a shorter distance per revolution. Because odometers calculate distance based on a known travel distance per revolution, the final calculation could be off by something. Is this not true? I've not bothered to do the math to find out if this is appreciable, but I suppose it's possible.
I guess what I'm getting at is what affect does a slightly deflated tire have that changes the circumference reading vs. travel. Wouldn't the measurement come from how the odometer was calibrated to measure distance? A larger or smaller wheel size does change because the calibrated setting with diameter circumference have been set a certain way at factory. The diameter is different which would contribute to more and/or less travel depending on size of wheel, not so much the tire?! - Like I said... more questions than answers.
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:22 PM   #16
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In the year threeeee-thousaaaand, you'll need a GPS signal to move the car.
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:24 PM   #17
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The odometer is calibrate to a total outside diamater. Wheel vs. tire size is totally irrelevant. For all the odometer cares, you could be running 1" of tire, and 9" of wheel, or 9" of tire, and 1" of wheel diameter. What the tire sidewall does affect the compression, and how small it can get if under inflated, but a properly sized and inflated tire, be it on a 18" or a 15" rim can be identical.

Last edited by LastResort; 02-19-2007 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:30 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by mbs627 View Post
Do they really?

Take a fully inflated tire, cut it and lay the tread out, it will measure x inches as the circumference.

Take a deflated tire and do the same. Where's the difference.
OMG

Ok, so you take a fully inflated balloon, punture it and lay it out, and measure the surface area.

Take a deflated balloon and do the same. Where's the difference?

A tire is not rigid, it expands as you put more air in it. Higher air pressure = more stretched rubber = larger diameter = larger circumference.
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:30 PM   #19
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kookaburra View Post
A few years back Hyundai was forced to restate engine output on Elantra.
That was because the power output "on average" was significantly lower than what was advertised. What I am talking about is the error as in standard deviation. When a car is advertised to have 200HP, what percentage of cars will have 195<HP<205? What about 190<HP<210? My point is that the engine output rating probably has much more than 4% spread around the average, judging by the dyno results.
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Old 02-19-2007, 01:22 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
OMG

Ok, so you take a fully inflated balloon, punture it and lay it out, and measure the surface area.

Take a deflated balloon and do the same. Where's the difference?

A tire is not rigid, it expands as you put more air in it. Higher air pressure = more stretched rubber = larger diameter = larger circumference.
Hahaha, OWNED!
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