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Old 02-28-2007, 01:35 PM   #1
NYCshopper
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Default Autos to overtake manuals (Europe)

Autos to overtake manuals (Europe)

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/news.php?sid=507&page=1




Quote:
Automatic transmissions will finally overtake manuals as the top-selling gearbox choice in 2007.

Autos have been long established as the more popular option Stateside and in Japan, but it seems that Europe has now finally caught the two-pedal bug.

With the ever-increasing popularity of semi-automatic gearboxes (Tiptronic, DSG, CVT and a whole flood of other acronyms), it isnít hard to see why. They might weigh and cost more, but buyers love them, according to new research by analysts at Just-auto.com.

They forecast that automatic gearboxes will account for just over half of all sales this year, pipping manuals to the post by just a few units. But autos are set to continue their stronghold and are likely to hog almost 70% of the market by 2014.

This is still largely due to the massive demand for autos in the Japanese and American markets. But the cost of autos has tumbled in Asia and the growth in congestion elsewhere is helping make more drivers take the lazy option and switch to an automatic.

By 2014, Justauto predicts autos (yellow on chart) will account for two-thirds of transmissions (blue bars are manual sales)


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Old 02-28-2007, 01:45 PM   #2
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autos FTL! real cars have three pedals!
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Old 02-28-2007, 02:23 PM   #3
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That really sucks!

It's a dying breed.
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Old 02-28-2007, 02:28 PM   #4
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Interesting news. When a colleague at work was looking to buy a new Volvo, he mentioned it was only available in an automatic. I said "Go for it!" He fired back and said, "You Americans and your automatic gear boxes!" Anyway, to make a long story short, he bought the car and loves the automatic (6 speed auto).
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Old 02-28-2007, 02:33 PM   #5
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as long as companies don't stop producing manuals im could care less with what other lazy unappreciative people drive.(of course exceptions to this rule but for the most part...)
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Old 02-28-2007, 03:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezaL2345 View Post
as long as companies don't stop producing manuals im could care less with what other lazy unappreciative people drive.(of course exceptions to this rule but for the most part...)
Well Europe is the last strong hold for true manual, and the point is that even Europe might be gone in a few years. Then manual tranny will die all together not long after.
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Old 02-28-2007, 04:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
Well Europe is the last strong hold for true manual, and the point is that even Europe might be gone in a few years. Then manual tranny will die all together not long after.

Well it is hard not to, considering the few advantages of manual is that, they save more gas, more reliable, cheaper and subjectively, more fun.

With the first three factors slowly being diminished, and the fourth factor not entirely concrete. It's hard to justify buying a manual, especially if you live in a traffic congested area. Plus, with the advent of SMG, DSG and all those flappy-paddle gearboxes, everybody seems to want that instead, a compromise of two worlds. Fast changes and convenience of having an auto mode when you're stuck in bumper to bumper traffic.

I'm not advocating that auto is better, the two cars I drive are both manual, but for the rest of the population, I guess it just doesn't seem that worth it for the extra hassle of a pedal.
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Old 02-28-2007, 04:53 PM   #8
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Before you know it.. manuals will be an option until they're done away with it

I remember when autos were an option... damn I'm old
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantec View Post
Well it is hard not to, considering the few advantages of manual is that, they save more gas, more reliable, cheaper and subjectively, more fun.

With the first three factors slowly being diminished, and the fourth factor not entirely concrete. It's hard to justify buying a manual, especially if you live in a traffic congested area. Plus, with the advent of SMG, DSG and all those flappy-paddle gearboxes, everybody seems to want that instead, a compromise of two worlds. Fast changes and convenience of having an auto mode when you're stuck in bumper to bumper traffic.

I'm not advocating that auto is better, the two cars I drive are both manual, but for the rest of the population, I guess it just doesn't seem that worth it for the extra hassle of a pedal.
you know what they need! the best of both worlds.. have and auto then if you want to drive manual. flick a switch or something and it activates the clutch pedal. now im pretty sure this would be a big transmission though.dsg and all that jazz just doesnt seem right to me, although i can see its benefits to everyday people.
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Old 02-28-2007, 08:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigElm View Post
Before you know it.. manuals will be an option until they're done away with it
Subarus still are like 30-50% manual (dont know the exact number, but Imprezas are over 50% manual transmissions)

It seems as though certain brands/models are what people buy for manual transmissions specifically...
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:04 PM   #11
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"I used to have to park myself."

Sign of the times. Enthusiasts will be forced into autos whether we like it or not. 95% of the population wants that extra hand to drink, eat, smoke, or fling their used butts out the window and could care less about learning to "drive".
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:27 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by yakker View Post
"I used to have to park myself."

Sign of the times. Enthusiasts will be forced into autos whether we like it or not. 95% of the population wants that extra hand to drink, eat, smoke, or fling their used butts out the window and could care less about learning to "drive".
stop it! you're scaring me. "Sad but True" - Metallica
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:51 AM   #13
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I will never own an automatic, even if that means I am stuck with used cars for the rest of my life!!
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantec View Post
Well it is hard not to, considering the few advantages of manual is that, they save more gas, more reliable, cheaper and subjectively, more fun.

With the first three factors slowly being diminished, and the fourth factor not entirely concrete. It's hard to justify buying a manual, especially if you live in a traffic congested area. Plus, with the advent of SMG, DSG and all those flappy-paddle gearboxes, everybody seems to want that instead, a compromise of two worlds. Fast changes and convenience of having an auto mode when you're stuck in bumper to bumper traffic.

I'm not advocating that auto is better, the two cars I drive are both manual, but for the rest of the population, I guess it just doesn't seem that worth it for the extra hassle of a pedal.
According JD Power's annual reports, step-ATs, DCT and CVT are as reliable as manuals.

You're right, usually autos use more gas than manuals, but CVT has some opportunities which enables some OEMs to create a CVT with better fuel efficiency than the manual. It's expected that within 5 years CVTs will have an even better fuel efficiency of 4-6%.

Nissan has two examples on the road where the CVT is better than the manual:

- Nissan Sentra 2.0L (USA)
EPA mileage 28 MPG city/34 MPG highway (manual), 29/36 (CVT automatic).
see http://cars.about.com/od/nissan/fr/ag_07sentra.htm

- Nissan Qashqai 2.0L (Europe):
Nissan's Press Release (27 Feb):
"Nissanís latest crossover the QASHQAI, when fitted with the constant variable transmission (CVT), boasts a lower exhaust emission level and improved fuel economy over the manual. Yes, an automatic thatís better for the environment and your wallet, compared to the equivalent manual. And you can choose to have it in either two- or four-wheel drive.

Linked to an all new lightweight aluminium fuel efficient 2.0 litre petrol engine the CVT shows a CO2 rating of 192g/km compared to 199g/km for the manual which represents a 3.6% improvement. Economy goes up from 41.5mpg to 43.5mpg in the extra urban cycle and from 34.4mpg to 35.3mpg in the combined cycle. "
see: http://www.nissanpress.co.uk/nissan/...7/52362nis.htm

About the costs, well, you're right. But why do we want to spend so much money on navigation, electrical stuff, wheels, much too big engines etc, but we don't spend it on an automatic (in Europe).

And what's the fun of gear changes? In the USA manuals are considered as special, but please, be honest, almost everything is automated on a car these days, so why bother on changing gears? The best in class automated transmissions (CVT and DCT) are very comfortable, smooth and have excellent performance.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:18 AM   #15
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I'm inclined to agree with you guys... I've only had one automatic transmission car, and it took about a week for me to get bored with it. I've never even considered another auto since then.

Well.... I take that back. I drove a DSG Gti, and that car was FUN.

If you want to get really technical about it, though, some of the "auto" transmissions like DSG are really clutchless manuals, aren't they? If Subaru offered a WRX with a hydraulically actuated clutch that could actually shift faster than a human, did rev matching, and provided a launch mode, I might consider it.

But as many of you said, I hate to think that in the process of enjoying the above system, I forgot how to really drive a manual.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantec View Post
Well it is hard not to, considering the few advantages of manual is that, they save more gas, more reliable, cheaper and subjectively, more fun.

With the first three factors slowly being diminished, and the fourth factor not entirely concrete. It's hard to justify buying a manual, especially if you live in a traffic congested area. Plus, with the advent of SMG, DSG and all those flappy-paddle gearboxes, everybody seems to want that instead, a compromise of two worlds. Fast changes and convenience of having an auto mode when you're stuck in bumper to bumper traffic.

I'm not advocating that auto is better, the two cars I drive are both manual, but for the rest of the population, I guess it just doesn't seem that worth it for the extra hassle of a pedal.
According JD Power's annual reports, step-ATs, DCT and CVT are as reliable as manuals.

You're right, usually autos use more gas than manuals, but CVT has some opportunities which enables some OEMs to create a CVT with better fuel efficiency than the manual. It's expected that within 5 years CVTs will have an even better fuel efficiency of 4-6%.

Nissan has two examples on the road where the CVT is better than the manual:

- Nissan Sentra 2.0L (USA)
EPA mileage 28 MPG city/34 MPG highway (manual), 29/36 (CVT automatic).
see http://cars.about.com/od/nissan/fr/ag_07sentra.htm

- Nissan Qashqai 2.0L (Europe):
Nissan's Press Release (27 Feb):
"Nissanís latest crossover the QASHQAI, when fitted with the constant variable transmission (CVT), boasts a lower exhaust emission level and improved fuel economy over the manual. Yes, an automatic thatís better for the environment and your wallet, compared to the equivalent manual. And you can choose to have it in either two- or four-wheel drive.

Linked to an all new lightweight aluminium fuel efficient 2.0 litre petrol engine the CVT shows a CO2 rating of 192g/km compared to 199g/km for the manual which represents a 3.6% improvement. Economy goes up from 41.5mpg to 43.5mpg in the extra urban cycle and from 34.4mpg to 35.3mpg in the combined cycle. "
see: http://www.nissanpress.co.uk/nissan/...7/52362nis.htm

About the costs, well, you're right. But why do we want to spend so much money on navigation, electrical stuff, wheels, much too big engines etc, but we don't spend it on an automatic (in Europe).

And what's the fun of gear changes? In the USA manuals are considered as special, but please, be honest, almost everything is automated on a car these days, so why bother on changing gears? The best in class automated transmissions (CVT and DCT) are very comfortable, smooth and have excellent performance.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:38 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Steinbeck View Post

If you want to get really technical about it, though, some of the "auto" transmissions like DSG are really clutchless manuals, aren't they? If Subaru offered a WRX with a hydraulically actuated clutch that could actually shift faster than a human, did rev matching, and provided a launch mode, I might consider it.
DSG actually has dual clutches. but i still wouldn't consider it. i just don't see a the fun factor in smashing the gas pedal and flicking paddle shifters. i don't give a crap about faster shifting. i want to do the rev matching. i want to heel-toe while rev matching. i want to be able to go from 4th gear to 2nd gear (can't do that in an SMG or DSG).
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:49 AM   #18
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autos FTL! real cars have three pedals!
Tell that to F1 Drivers.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:52 AM   #19
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Tell that to F1 Drivers.
You don't understand. Despite the fact that F1, WRC, etc have paddles, real men(TM) use the clutch.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:57 AM   #20
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I have an automatic and bahhh it's boring. I know it's good to learn how to drive in an auto so you focus more on the rules of the road before focusing on shifting... but it's lame now.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:59 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by MTB-er View Post

And what's the fun of gear changes? In the USA manuals are considered as special, but please, be honest, almost everything is automated on a car these days, so why bother on changing gears? The best in class automated transmissions (CVT and DCT) are very comfortable, smooth and have excellent performance.
You're absolutely right about the efficiency issue. The idea of the CVT is fantastic, and in terms of hard numbers, a well designed CVT offers a lot of advantages over a manual, both in terms of performance and frugality. The shame of the CVT, though, is that they haven't sold all that well here in the states. Until recently I worked in car sales, and there were many complaints from customers after they drove the CVT Ford Five Hundred. Many of them thought the transmission felt like it was "slipping," or just plain "felt weird." In short, it was different enough to make people feel uncomfortable with the idea, and in turn shy away from making an actual purchase. I would try to explain the system, but for some reason a lot of average Joes have trouble getting their head around the idea. A crying shame.

But as for the "fun of gear changes," I can't help it; I really love shifting the gearbox myself. Maybe it's because I feel more in sync with the mechanicals of the car. Then again, maybe I'm just weird. I'm not alone, though. Even if it doesn't really make sense, there are people who really like to operate the machine, rather than just go along for the ride. After all, that's the reason why cars like the Ariel Atom and Lotus Elise exist, right?
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:02 AM   #22
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Tell that to F1 Drivers.
screw F1 drivers! NASCAR 4 lyfe fool!
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:05 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by infamousflip View Post
DSG actually has dual clutches. but i still wouldn't consider it. i just don't see a the fun factor in smashing the gas pedal and flicking paddle shifters. i don't give a crap about faster shifting. i want to do the rev matching. i want to heel-toe while rev matching. i want to be able to go from 4th gear to 2nd gear (can't do that in an SMG or DSG).
You may very well be right. My love for the DSG may have been partly due to the newness of the experience. If I actually owned one, I might end up bored with it. Then again, you never really know until you try it, right? I thought the idea was kind of dumb at first, too, but for the entire 45 minutes of my drive I was absolutely enthralled.

I'd like to autocross a GTi just once on a pretty tight layout and see if it's seems as fun then.
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:02 AM   #24
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[quote=J. Steinbeck;17220919]You're absolutely right about the efficiency issue. The idea of the CVT is fantastic, and in terms of hard numbers, a well designed CVT offers a lot of advantages over a manual, both in terms of performance and frugality. The shame of the CVT, though, is that they haven't sold all that well here in the states. Until recently I worked in car sales, and there were many complaints from customers after they drove the CVT Ford Five Hundred. Many of them thought the transmission felt like it was "slipping," or just plain "felt weird." In short, it was different enough to make people feel uncomfortable with the idea, and in turn shy away from making an actual purchase. I would try to explain the system, but for some reason a lot of average Joes have trouble getting their head around the idea. A crying shame.
QUOTE]

The Ford Five Hundred has a chain driven CFT30 of Ford (actually former ZF) - Batavia. This transmission has had many complaints and failures, especially in the first year.

Actually I was referring to the belt driven CVTs as made by Nissan (Murano, Sentra, Maxima), Honda (Civic Hybrid), Dodge Caliber, Jeep (Compass, Patriot) in the USA, and many many of these belt driven CVT applications by Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Subaru, Suzuki, Mitsubishi in Japan.

One of the advantages of these CVTs is, that at all times you have immediate access to full power without torque loss, because there's no (conventional) shifting.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:03 PM   #25
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Maybe we can get subaru to drop the computer controlled spark advance. If I could control that from behind the wheel, I'd really feel in-sync with the machine.
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