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Old 03-07-2012, 02:53 PM   #76
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Just yesterday I saw a man back into another car so hard it cracked the bumper. He got out of his suv and stated: "damn, crappy back up camera didn't tell he I was about to hit him." Moral of the story: You can't fix stupid. People who drive like **** are going to do it regardless of the tech you put in cars. Laziness and stupidity seem to always prevail.
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:00 PM   #77
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Soo the big problem i have with back up cameras that are placed on cars is that we we look forward to back up? This concept has never made too much sense to me and I think it is beyond stupid and imo find it more dangerous... However I agree, if it does become mandatory, stick it on vehicles that exceed a threshold in size and hight. There is no reason your subcompact or compact car or most full size cars to need a backup camera.

If this does somehow pass, instead please put the clear flexible LED screens in the corner of the back window or C/D pillar and some sort of warning system in the side view mirrors. Also make the camera show IR signatures instead of the visible spectrum. A red object on a screen is hell of a lot easier to see than a black object, especially at night, and would keep the driver focused on what is behind them.

Or best yet, how about an option with an insurance discount if owned?
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:33 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by rallydriverosix View Post
Soo the big problem i have with back up cameras that are placed on cars is that we we look forward to back up?

If this does somehow pass, instead please put the clear flexible LED screens in the corner of the back window or C/D pillar and some sort of warning system in the side view mirrors. Also make the camera show IR signatures instead of the visible spectrum. A red object on a screen is hell of a lot easier to see than a black object, especially at night, and would keep the driver focused on what is behind them.

Or best yet, how about an option with an insurance discount if owned?
A screen in the back of the car is going to be significantly far away that it would have to be as big as the back window itself to be able to see anything on it.

A rear view mirror is not that hard to use by looking forward and up to see aft-ward.

But there is no reason for the US to mandate it.

There is only ONE reason. Bureaucratic sustained relevance efforts. Government trying to make sure you need them, by trumping up new regulations to non-issues.

We'll all be regulated into padded cells from cradle to grave by the time they are done, and the bureaucracy will handle everything in their own interest.
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:57 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopho View Post
... 5 years later by someone who apparently just joined the forum?






Err....






Car companies are already designing the interiors to accept optional nav/camera screens, even on entry level cars, it would cost less in packaging/redesign/tooling because they won't have to make it both ways anymore.




Oh shut up already! You're the one having a knee jerk reaction.
Whining about this because of your political ideology is pretty myopic, there is really very little downside to having mandatory rear view cameras and the cost isn't going to go up by much. Indocti Discant just proved you can have a RVC for less than $100.
Having driven a lot of cars with RVC's since this original discussion, it is a really convenient feature to have regardless of whether it saves lives

And perhaps "poor people" who can barely afford a car shouldn't be buying new cars, you know all that personal fiscal responsibility stuff right wingers like to go on about...
Yeah and how much does that Nav unit cost? Exactly...

Also that $100 system isn't "decent", read the reviews. Most people basically say its just trash and the mirror sucks and the quality sucks.

A very small portion of vehicle related deaths are caused by people backing up into other people. I think cameras are a terrible thing to mandate, especially considering the problem mostly affects larger vehicles.

If they want to save lives, they should look into better systems that help everyone (not just huge SUVs) or *gasp* make people already driving on the road take defensive driving classes.

Last edited by ocellaris; 03-07-2012 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:04 PM   #80
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Look more neocons like me! HAHA...

common sense is not dead. Thanks guys for being reasonable thinking Americans.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:57 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
mopho, your consistency and name calling is boringly predictable.

IF people feel the need to add a camera let them be made optional. What is the brilliance of government going to do when people look down at their camera and they do not see the car coming down the parking lot and they get T-boned. Guess we need some side looking cameras now as well huh?
People don't use their turn signals or mirrors either, so I suppose those should be optional too huh?

And your consistent political rhetoric is boring and predictable. BTW it was you that resorted to insults chief

Quote:
Technical gizmos are not substitute for an attentive driver.
No one said otherwise but what is wrong with having more tools at your disposal?

You're so blinded by your politics that you can't see that there is really no downside to this.
As I noted, 5 years later cars are already designed with cameras and screens in mind (many come standard), it is not a big deal to add them at this point, and at some point they will be in all cars regardless of a mandate.
Perhaps it is you that needs to find some common sense

Oh and here is your quote from the 5 years ago

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post

However, I will say this. If this would save one little kids life, then no matter how much it costs, I would be tough to argue against it.

Well chief, it's pretty much guaranteed (statistically) it would save at least one little kids life






Quote:
Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post

and FWIW I believe a RVC like I linked is a $25-40 cost (to OEM) to put in.
Who is going to be able to afford that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocellaris View Post
Yeah and how much does that Nav unit cost? Exactly...
You tell me? You're the one who thinks it's going to be big bucks
My point was to disprove your comment that there was no place to put it in an Impreza.
Again, pretty much every car is designed now to have such screens, it is no longer a big deal. At some point it is going to be cheaper to put a touch screen in for all the controls than to create knobs and dials


Quote:
Also that $100 system isn't "decent", read the reviews. Most people basically say its just trash and the mirror sucks and the quality sucks.
Whatever, that was merely one example. Do you really think that when a manufacturer is buying screens in the 100's of thousands it is going to cost much more?

Quote:
If they want to save lives, they should look into better systems that help everyone (not just huge SUVs) or *gasp* make people already driving on the road take defensive driving classes.
They are always looking at better systems and yes, better driver education would be ideal, but people would complain if that was forced on them too. And even with better training having more tools at your disposal isn't a bad thing.


I am sure you guys wouldn't be complaining if it was the manufacturers who decided to make all cars have RVC's



And with that comment, I've now realized this is a completely circular discussion as I just made the same exact points I did 5 years ago, so no reason in discussing anymore.
The thing is I was right about most cars having RVC's available in 2012 and that it is inevitable regardless of govt. mandate. Complaining about it is truly a waste of breadth
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:45 PM   #82
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I think the issue is more about people paying attention. The questions one needs to ask are, do people back up into things because they CAN'T see them or do people back up into things because they DIDN'T LOOK. I'm much more inclined to believe it's because they don't look. Too many people driving while posting on facebook, sending texts, doing their makeup, eating, drinking, messing with their iPod ect. Distracted drivers will be distracted drivers. If they can't be bothered to look behind them, they probably won't look down/up/to the side at a screen.

I think a much more effective system would be proximity sensing radar that warns you and applies brake pressure when a collision is imminent. I'm certainly no expert on the matter though and these are just my first few thoughts.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:46 PM   #83
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You tell me? You're the one who thinks it's going to be big bucks
My point was to disprove your comment that there was no place to put it in an Impreza.
Would you really want people looking down into the dash to backup? These systems should be higher so people can catch more in their peripheral vision. Up where the trip guide is would be safer, and that area currently isn't big enough for an easily viewed display.

Also I don't have a problem spending money on safety systems. I've been buying cars for 15 years and I already lean towards cars with the newest and best safety features as they became available. I just think this is a terrible place to do it. There isn't a big outbreak of people getting backed over or anything like that. Back up accident represent approximately 0.5% of all vehicle fatalities, and almost all of those were from people driving high vehicles. The numbers are not high enough to force this on EVERYONE who buys a new car. I don't think a backup camera makes a small car safer, I think it adds a distraction.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:49 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Airplay355 View Post
I think the issue is more about people paying attention. The questions one needs to ask are, do people back up into things because they CAN'T see them or do people back up into things because they DIDN'T LOOK. I'm much more inclined to believe it's because they don't look. Too many people driving while posting on facebook, sending texts, doing their makeup, eating, drinking, messing with their iPod ect. Distracted drivers will be distracted drivers. If they can't be bothered to look behind them, they probably won't look down/up/to the side at a screen.

I think a much more effective system would be proximity sensing radar that warns you and applies brake pressure when a collision is imminent. I'm certainly no expert on the matter though and these are just my first few thoughts.
There are plenty of vehicles where you literally can not see stuff out the back window(s) unless it is like over 4 feet high.

And yes the proximity thing would be superior and less distracting. Also the same system could be used to help avoid highway accidents by using longer range proximity detectors.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:58 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by ocellaris View Post
Would you really want people looking down into the dash to backup? These systems should be higher so people can catch more in their peripheral vision. Up where the trip guide is would be safer, and that area currently isn't big enough for an easily viewed display.

Also I don't have a problem spending money on safety systems. I've been buying cars for 15 years and I already lean towards cars with the newest and best safety features as they became available. I just think this is a terrible place to do it. There isn't a big outbreak of people getting backed over or anything like that. Back up accident represent approximately 0.5% of all vehicle fatalities, and almost all of those were from people driving high vehicles. The numbers are not high enough to force this on EVERYONE who buys a new car. I don't think a backup camera makes a small car safer, I think it adds a distraction.

It's not a terrible place to do it because it is an easy solution (that's already implemented in many cases) with very little if any drawbacks, so why not?

You people need to stop acting like this is some terrible thing being forced on people, it's not a big deal. If your car comes with a back up camera it's not like your car is going to suck to drive nor will it make your car unaffordable. For crying out loud of all stupid things to be complaining about!!!!

And I have used RVC's on many small and big cars, it is very useful and haven't found it to be a distraction at all. You don't use it to do all your backing up, you use it to check your surroundings the same as a mirror
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:42 PM   #86
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The proximity thing might work if it had like a 110Db alarm to get over whatever level the stereo was at.
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:43 PM   #87
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My 4Runner has a backup camera (which is awesome for backing into parking spots and my garage) and the rear sonar. Combine that with big windows and I can see out of my massive SUV better than I could my GTI. Parallel parking is a freaking breeze in what is a huge vehicle. It makes hooking up a trailer super easy, too.

As far as government regulation, I pretty much do the same thing at work. When someone doesn't follow their standard work and makes a defect, I make changes to the process that absolutely force them into making sure they cannot do it wrong. If they still manage to make it wrong (consciously ignore the tools they've been given to do the job right), that falls on them. If you have a backup camera and you back over your kid, you have much less opportunity to deflect responsibility. You had a tool that shows you what is right behind your vehicle when you put it in reverse and started moving the car. I think the extra cost of mandating them is generally a moot point because I think it will be like power locks and power windows: they are too convenient for most people to not want them and they'll become standard features.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:33 PM   #88
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The proximity thing might work if it had like a 110Db alarm to get over whatever level the stereo was at.
My Hyundai automatically mutes the radio when the sonar alarm goes off.

Other than that, carry on with your derpfest, gentlemen.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:42 PM   #89
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My Hyundai automatically mutes the radio when the sonar alarm goes off.

Other than that, carry on with your derpfest, gentlemen.
and it didnt price you out of the market?
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:54 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Dex View Post
Just yesterday I saw a man back into another car so hard it cracked the bumper. He got out of his suv and stated: "damn, crappy back up camera didn't tell he I was about to hit him." Moral of the story: You can't fix stupid. People who drive like **** are going to do it regardless of the tech you put in cars. Laziness and stupidity seem to always prevail.
Agreed. Please stop trying to improve the average person at the expense of those who could handle everything just fine. Keep this **** optional or start being more rigorous in testing so you don't have to lump everyone together in the near-brain dead category. I'd be much more agreeable if they had different licensing instead of **** like this thats just going to hurt everyone's wallet and add MORE stuff I don't need/want.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:07 PM   #91
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Ahh, **** it.

Last edited by quentinberg007; 03-07-2012 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:37 PM   #92
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There is no substitute for astute drivers. You can put the backup cameras on cars, but that won't guarantee they will be used. It may save a few lives, but I don't see the same people that back over children using their backup cameras either.

I'd much prefer the proximity sensor. Easier to keep up situation awareness when you can use multiple senses.

I will be interested to see how this progresses. I foresee implementing a system forcing you to look at the screen before moving the vehicle. I also see aftermarket head units becoming significantly more expensive, if removing the backup cameras is illegal.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:58 PM   #93
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and it didnt price you out of the market?
4k more on what's supposed to be a cheap car is pretty much pricing out of the market. That's a 23% increase over base price.
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Old 03-08-2012, 12:12 AM   #94
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4k more on what's supposed to be a cheap car is pretty much pricing out of the market. That's a 23% increase over base price.
holy ****. $4k for a RVC?

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Old 03-08-2012, 01:42 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indocti Discant

holy ****. $4k for a RVC?



They threw in the remote start, keyless entry/ignition, glass roof, 18s, automatic headlights, leather interior, navigation, A/C outlets, Bluetooth, and sound system for free, so it was basically a wash.

Last edited by XanRules; 03-08-2012 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:10 AM   #96
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They threw in the remote start, keyless entry/ignition, glass roof, 18s, automatic headlights, leather interior, navigation, A/C outlets, Bluetooth, and sound system for free, so it was basically a wash.
govt mandated?
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:54 AM   #97
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And yes the proximity thing would be superior and less distracting. Also the same system could be used to help avoid highway accidents by using longer range proximity detectors.
Volvo already working on that. Expect to pay premium for it though. Dont wait for the government to start enforcing this type of system.

My car has the radar type sensors. Tells me if there are objects close to car and graphically how far they are. IMO it sucks. Refresh is too slow. I was backing up out of the driveway and almost ran over a person walking by because I wasnt paying attention too.
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:49 PM   #98
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I think people are getting confused, and are mixing two distinctly different issues here. Technical or Political.

There is the technical issue of whether or not cameras can and do work.

They can work, They do work, and driver aids like that can actually help, and are additional, not intended to be blanket-substitutive to good direct visibility, and driver situational awareness. It is not an excuse to design a vehicle to prohibit proper direct visibility. Fresnel lenses, and convex mirrors are also tools that some use to reduce 'blind spots' behind reversing vehicles.

THE OTHER ISSUE:

Should the government be politically mandating it, regardless of technical merit.

NO. It is not under federal purview, that sort of micromanagement is not in the enumerated powers, and the 9th and 10th amendments limit the government to the enumerated powers, and leave freedom to the states, and most importantly, to the citizenry.


Backup cameras, sonar sensors... are tools. Tools that can be marketed as safety aids. Tools that a buyer can CHOOSE to purchase and employ.

People who want to promote this safety technology need to go into MARKETING, not into government bureaucracy that regulates, like so many other aspects of life that are regulated, when they should be a commercial marketing point, and not mandated. Compel people to adopt good ideas, don't mandate people accept them without a choice.... and not all mandates are good ideas, because people know that people won't adopt bad ideas freely.

It is not the government's role to mandate it, and the only motivation is the growth of bureaucracy that I mentioned before.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 03-08-2012 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:39 PM   #99
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It's been made clear and are in the forum rules... No Political comments or discussions in this forum.
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:43 PM   #100
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govt mandated?
Probably. I turn them off - **** the police.
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