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Old 03-02-2007, 11:14 PM   #1
soobaviator
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Default TD04L-13T-6 Vs TD04HL-

Maybe I'm waaay off on this but I was porting and polishing a batch of TD04 turbos today and in the batch I had a TD04 of of a JDM EJ205 WRX. I had finished the work and was reassembling the turbos thinking that all of them were the same and the hot side housings were interchangeable. Imagine my surprise when I tried to put a USDM TD04 housing on the JDM TD04 and it was too small! That's right it did not fit! Upon closer inspection I found that the JDM has a TD04HL wheel and is much larger than the USDM TD04L wheel.

All along I had been operating with the understanding that the TD04L-13T that is supposedly what we have on our USDM EJ205 WRX's, in fact had a TD04HL wheel. But they don't! WTF!!! I had three turbos in the batch all from 02-04 USDM WRX and one from the JDM WRX all the USDM's were the same with the same part number and model stamped on the housings, but the JDM was different.

So what gives? What turbo do we actually have on the USDM EJ205? I checked the PnP turbo I have on my 02 WRX and it is indeed and TD04L like the the two I PnP'd today. I took some pics and you all can judge for yourselves!

Side by side housings off

Wheel to wheel housings removed

Wheels side by side

Housings on comparison

TD04L Compressor stamp

TD04HL Compressor stamp

Measurements for the TD04L wheel come out at 1.857/1.618 Inducer exducer. Measurements for the TD04HL come out at 2.045/1.798 inducer/exducer. What gives here? Someone please clear this up for me.
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Old 03-02-2007, 11:27 PM   #2
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.....
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Old 03-02-2007, 11:41 PM   #3
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Oh BTW I had a VF39 turbo I had Pnpd last week but had not yet reassembled and I put the hot side up against the TD04HL and damned if they were'nt nearly the same size! I did not take pics but the calipers turned out 2.063/1.874 Inducer/exducer. Holy s@#t!
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Old 03-03-2007, 10:32 AM   #4
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Nobody has any comment?
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Old 03-03-2007, 11:39 AM   #5
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I never new that.. My stock turbo from my 2002 wrx has TD04L stamped on it, its sitting on the floor right next to me hehe..

I guess we can assume that its either two things here..

1. The JDM wrx has a TD04HL turbo from the factory

-or-

2. The owner upgraded his turbo

3. Someone at mitsubishi sent the subaru factory the wrong turbos
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Old 03-03-2007, 11:48 AM   #6
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Doing a bit of research into things now and the MHI assembly number 49377-04300 is a TD04L-13T-6cm. However I can not find much info on the MHI assembly number 49189-06000! It may be a TD04HL-14T-6? Don't know... Is there anyone knowlegeable about the JDM WRX turbos that could pitch in here? I think for me there is no issue of wheather or not the USDM turbo is a 13T but what in the world this JDM TD04HL is!
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Old 03-03-2007, 01:18 PM   #7
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It's simple. HL refers to the wheel/housing size on the turbine side.

Wheel Exducer (in.) Inducer (in.) Trim
TD04..........1.57.....1.86....71
TD04L.........1.62.....1.86....76
TD04H........1.74.....2.04....73
TD04HL.......1.80.....2.05....77
TE04H.........1.88.....2.01....87
TD05H.........1.93.....2.20....77

The USDM is a TD04L-13T. If you are seeing something else, it's either an upgrade or a factory one off to keep the line running.

<----damn, he's good
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Old 03-03-2007, 02:46 PM   #8
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Once again jdm>usdm.
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
It's simple. HL refers to the wheel/housing size on the turbine side.

Wheel Exducer (in.) Inducer (in.) Trim
TD04..........1.57.....1.86....71
TD04L.........1.62.....1.86....76
TD04H........1.74.....2.04....73
TD04HL.......1.80.....2.05....77
TE04H.........1.88.....2.01....87
TD05H.........1.93.....2.20....77

The USDM is a TD04L-13T. If you are seeing something else, it's either an upgrade or a factory one off to keep the line running.

<----damn, he's good
Got it...but still does not tell me what the turbo is.

What I've turned up is according to the assembly number on the turbo it is a different Compressor and Turbine from the USDM.

The two MHI assembly numbers:

Hot side Cold side

49377 = TD04L 04300 = 13T-6
49189 = TD04HL 06000 = 14T-6?

I put the info together from this chart:

Melett Turbo Application Catalog

In addition I found that assembly 49189-06000 was standard issue on the 1998 JDM/Euro WRX? But no confirmation that this is actually a 14T-6 compressor with the TD04HL wheel. Can't find it in any of the Subaru turbo charts here on NASIOC...

Found that info here:

CR Turbos catalog

The reason I'm very interested in this is because by the calipers this turbo seems very similar in size to the VF39 I have waiting to go on my 02 WRX. I would love to get the specs and see if I could tune my car for this turbo. I try to do my homework first and this turbo I happened across seems very intriguing. Would love to get a compressor map and see houw it stacks up against the 13T.

Last edited by soobaviator; 03-03-2007 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:31 PM   #10
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Got news for ya chief, the compressor map is probably identical to the stock WRX turbo. A 13T map is a 13T map is a 13T map, there is not such thing as a turbine map. Well....to be honest there is, but you and I will NEVER see one. So you cannot compare turbine A vs B vs C. You can compare compressor sides though.

As to 14T-6? Who knows....it could be anything. It could be swapped as well. Odds of you finding out are about .0984:1 and the odds of you then finding a compressor map are .0000000000000000000084:1 as it took us 4 years to find the 13T map.
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Old 03-03-2007, 07:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
Got news for ya chief, the compressor map is probably identical to the stock WRX turbo. A 13T map is a 13T map is a 13T map, there is not such thing as a turbine map. Well....to be honest there is, but you and I will NEVER see one. So you cannot compare turbine A vs B vs C. You can compare compressor sides though.

As to 14T-6? Who knows....it could be anything. It could be swapped as well. Odds of you finding out are about .0984:1 and the odds of you then finding a compressor map are .0000000000000000000084:1 as it took us 4 years to find the 13T map.

Sorry 'Bomber, but that's just not good enough. These are definitely two distinct turbochargers. Part numbers/assembly numbers mean things and these are definitely not two shades of 13T turbochargers. The USDM EJ205 and JDM EJ205 turbos have two different part numbers for a reason I believe. The JDM motor is higher compression, higher reving, and equipped with AVCS. I would wager that the turbos are at least slightly different spec. I may end up taking the compressor housings off these bad boys and see how they do against the calipers. I am not going to believe these turbos have the same compressor side until someone proves that to be so.

The reason why I'm thinking this may be a 14T-6 is that the MHI turbo for the 97-00 V40/S40 uses the same compressor assembly number, 06000, that is present on this turbo. The difference on the volvo turbo is that it uses the same hot side, 49377, as our TD04L-13T-6 and is thus a TD04L-14T-6. The 14T wheel seems to be a very mysterious bird indeed as I can't find out much about it and all the places that list MHI turbo information seem to skip it...

My fangs have come out on this one and I'm not going to let it go...
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Old 03-03-2007, 09:31 PM   #12
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OK, I dig....I thought for a minute you though that TD04L and TD04HL had different compressor maps....my bad. Anyways.....good luck with finding that info. After a little searching on your behalf, I can find the HL model coming in 13, 16, 18, and 19 flavors if that narrows down choices for you at all. Didn't look myself, but see if this melett link helps: http://www.melett.com/pdfs/MHI/Mhi%20TD04.pdf
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Old 03-04-2007, 11:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
OK, I dig....I thought for a minute you though that TD04L and TD04HL had different compressor maps....my bad. Anyways.....good luck with finding that info. After a little searching on your behalf, I can find the HL model coming in 13, 16, 18, and 19 flavors if that narrows down choices for you at all. Didn't look myself, but see if this melett link helps: http://www.melett.com/pdfs/MHI/Mhi%20TD04.pdf
Thanks, and I had linked to a table from Melett in my first post. That's where I found that assembly -06000 was a standard 14T-6 compressor and housing. This little turbo is very interesting and I'm waiting for some info to come in if this is indeed the standard turbo for the JDM EJ205. That brings up the question what is the power potential of this thing. If I'm not mistaken you have tuned the TD04L-13T to 256WHP correct? By the calipers this turbo seems to be a few ticks smaller than the VF39 and on the JDM EJ205 makes ~25HP more than the USDM EJ205. Could the possibility lie within for 270-280WHP from this unit?

This also begs another question which is that from what I understand there are quite a few folks out there running JDM EJ205's with the USDM ECU. IF a larger turbo is standard would not the USDM tune be wrong for the motor? Even if the ECU is protuned, without knowing the turbo characteristics would'nt you be leaving some power on the table or potentially creating a situation that could get your JDM motor in trouble. Coincidentally I got the turbo from a member who popped his motor...

The above is Just speculation but it is an interesting thought process. I was in the process of preparing my car for a pnp'd VF39 upgrade. Now that I've found this turbo I may go in a different direction. But first I think I will go and get my current setup on the dyno and see where I'm at then make a decision.

This may be a nice little find. I'll keep all who are interested posted on my discoveries.
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Old 03-04-2007, 11:20 AM   #14
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I am currently up to 250 though I hope that I soon eclipse that once I get off my dead ass and bolt up a few parts and get a new tune.

As to the ECU question, I'm sure you are on the right track. A bigger turbo would raise issues. While not monstorously bigger if your theory is true, there are people out there that have maxed out their injectors on the stocker, so a bigger one would/could do the motor in without pump/injectors/tuning.

I say run that bitch and see what it'll do. In theory you should have 'pert near stock spool and higher top end. It may make be a killer and I assume cheap option for us low end guys other than a P&P stocker or a stocker with a 16G wheel swap.

One other option for you to do is PM Deadbolt with this link and get his advice. He's a big Mitsu turbo dork and may know the specs off the top of his head or through his super secret turbo contacts. If anyone can help, Jerry can.
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Old 03-04-2007, 12:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soobaviator View Post
IF a larger turbo is standard would not the USDM tune be wrong for the motor? Even if the ECU is protuned, without knowing the turbo characteristics would'nt you be leaving some power on the table or potentially creating a situation that could get your JDM motor in trouble. Coincidentally I got the turbo from a member who popped his motor...
imho, no, the oem ecu tune (and anything based off the oem ecu such a reflashes) is maf load based, and is remarkably capable of adapting to VE changes.

that said, if this turbo is a good deal larger then you could conceivably run out of injector that much sooner. the oem usdm wrx injectors and turbo are quite well matched to one another in that respect.

although there is a strong popular opinion that different turbos require greatly different tunes, it is not really the case. the engine only "sees" mass air flow, manifold pressure/temperature, turbo dynamics (ie spool/response) and exhaust gas backpressure. the only things that are actually MEASURED are maf and map. the rest is basically a "black box" which restricts exhaust going out and packs air going in. by far the trickiest thing to tune just right, imho, is the turbo dynamics.

Quote:
This may be a nice little find. I'll keep all who are interested posted on my discoveries.
this is an interesting thread and i'm looking forward to any additional info you come up with.
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Old 03-05-2007, 01:50 PM   #16
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A piece of the puzzle...

The JDM turbo on engine ID EJ205DW3BE is a TD04HL-15T-6
Accoding to a translated subaru factory document for a model year 2001 WRX. The engine spec'ed out a 246HP@6000 and boost was 600mmHg (11.6 psi ???). That boost seems low but that is what is says...It's nice to have a Japanese wife who does translation for a living...

I believe the turbo I have came off a later model and was a EJ205DW4BE engine. Trying to find out what turbo that engine used.

The search goes on

Last edited by soobaviator; 03-05-2007 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:42 PM   #17
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Cool, Im suprised noone has mentioned this before.. i guess know one knew! I always assumed the wrx NB and the regular wrx in japan had the same turbo as ours..
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Old 03-05-2007, 06:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
imho, no, the oem ecu tune (and anything based off the oem ecu such a reflashes) is maf load based, and is remarkably capable of adapting to VE changes.

that said, if this turbo is a good deal larger then you could conceivably run out of injector that much sooner. the oem usdm wrx injectors and turbo are quite well matched to one another in that respect.
That's the part that I'm concerned about the most. With my current setup I have seen some pretty high IDC values that are too high for my comfort in my logs. Especially after the XPT Stage 2 reflash. Everything from the manifolds to the intercooler elbows is pnp'd, all exhaust parts coated, and thermal barrier material is applied to all exhaust shielding. If I just went an slapped on even a slightly bigger turbo I'm sure my injectors would go static or very near 100% at some point. I do have a set of new Deatsch 565's in the box in the garage but I've been too lazy to install them. I'm thinking of doing that next week and rescaling the injector boost trim tables so I can have some fun with this turbo later on...

I would love to get this thing on and see what I could get out of it especially since it is a rebuildable turbo unlike the VF39.

Still digging and inquiring around about this thing though. I'm positive now that the JDM EJ205 uses a bigger turbo than the USDM EJ205 just got to pin down exactly the model and spec.

Also as I noted previously the EJ205DW motors run less boost. I was thinking about it and remembered that the member who I got the turbo from said the motor also had large port heads, he showed them to me. Would that be the reason for the lower boost levels? The larger higher flowing heads allowing much more air/gas flow at all rev ranges? It's getting more interesting...
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soobaviator View Post
That's the part that I'm concerned about the most. With my current setup I have seen some pretty high IDC values that are too high for my comfort in my logs. Especially after the XPT Stage 2 reflash. Everything from the manifolds to the intercooler elbows is pnp'd, all exhaust parts coated, and thermal barrier material is applied to all exhaust shielding. If I just went an slapped on even a slightly bigger turbo I'm sure my injectors would go static or very near 100% at some point.
you're likely running rich, and tuning it leaner could buy you a bit of injector headroom, but without a wideband you don't really know.

Quote:
Also as I noted previously the EJ205DW motors run less boost. I was thinking about it and remembered that the member who I got the turbo from said the motor also had large port heads, he showed them to me. Would that be the reason for the lower boost levels? The larger higher flowing heads allowing much more air/gas flow at all rev ranges? It's getting more interesting...
see if you can scare up an ecu image for that engine/turbo combo. there's a lot of data buried in there that we could use to compare things.

better ve = more air (and more power) with less boost. it also requires more fuel which could be a reason for dialling back the tune to less aggressive airflow numbers. better heads and a larger turbo will help ve, so i think you may be on the right track.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:33 PM   #20
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How did you end up with this turbo?
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:17 PM   #21
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How did you end up with this turbo?
Bought it and a set of manifolds from a member who broke his JDM EJ205 and was parting it out. Since I know the JDM part number and have confirmed it's OEM for the EJ205DW motor I think I may be able to pick up some more on my visits to Japan. However I still have not confirmed the model and spec. I have info that it's a TD04HL-15T but the deciphering assembly number says its a TD04HL-14T. On the hot side it's slightly smaller than a VF39 but the compressor is noticeably smaller. I think I will have to take the housing off and measure the compressor to get the final verdict.
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:31 PM   #22
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you're likely running rich, and tuning it leaner could buy you a bit of injector headroom, but without a wideband you don't really know.
Road tested with a wideband with my old Cobb Stage 2 setup. Saw A/F in the low 11's and high tens depending on the outside air temps. Have not done any wideband logs with the XPT tune yet. The XPT tune seems to drive smoother than the Cobb and with 2 gal of Xylene in every tank I don't see knock. I'll get this setup on the dyno soon and we'll see if you've nailed it.

The thing is that even though I love the performance of my current rig, I'm super curious to go bigger and have all the supporting parts on hand to do it. This turbo may be an opportunity to meet in the middle. I've studied the the VF39 application on the USDM and I like the potential and can accept the drawbacks. But If the JDM TD04HL can give improved top end without giving up the low end driveability of the TD04L I'll go for it. Especially since I can get them cheap or rebuild them if necessary.
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Old 03-15-2007, 05:12 PM   #23
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Well after not being able to get logs or ROM images from a JDM car, I decided to plow my own furrow. After I found a 15T compressor Map from of all places a Hyundai Forum and verified the 15T compressor measurements on the calipers, I went ahead and put the JDM TD04 on along with rescaling for my Deatsch 565's that went in too. The JDM TD04 has more airflow than the 13T at similar efficiencies so I increased the boost targets in the higher rev ranges and added a bit of timing in places I thought it could be had. (I run 2 gallons of Xylene in every tank so effectively I'm at ~97 octane all the time) Finally, I upgraded from my gutted and coated stock DP to a catted PDE unit.

Driving impressions:

Down low there is not much difference feels more torquey, boost builds a bit slower. Through the mid-range bigger torque than the USDM TD04 and pulls much harder according to the but dyno. On two runs from 5mph how quickly I was at redline in first really took me by surprise...I bounced off the limiter hard. Running up through the gears the car pulls harder and stronger all the way to redline. Boost stays up at 18-19psi until 5-5,500 rpm then tapers to 14.5-15 at 7,000. 15.0 psi at 2375 is what I saw in 4th compared to 16+ psi at 2400 for the 13T.

By the logs airflow is increased 7-20% everywhere above 2,000 rpm. The biggest increases over the 13T in terms of airflow is from 5,500-redline. Since I put the new injectors IDC comparisons may not be very valid but I was at 76% on one run with the 565's. Also it should be noted that this is with the OEM WRX TMIC. I've got a JDM V7 STI top mount sitting in the garage but I did not have a proper splitter for it until this week so I never put it on.

I am very happy with it at this point and from reading the FAQ I was even prepared for the wastegate flutter now audible with the PDE Downpipe. Car pulls very hard and the ported bits have it running as smooth as glass. Very nice.

I was going to put in the wideband for logging and I realized I should after the OEM O2 sensor was in. The O2 sensor on the PDE pipe is a PITA to remove while the pipe is on the car...When I get back from Japan I have to get this thing on the dyno!
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Old 03-15-2007, 05:41 PM   #24
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Sweet i would love to get ahold of one of those cheap!Something i have noticed as well is the TDo4L-13T off the 06-07 WRX's is different than the 02-05 WRX's.They have different part #'s and the compressor housing is slightly different as well as the turbine housing.I have comparrison pics at home that i haven't loaded up yet.
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Sweet i would love to get ahold of one of those cheap!Something i have noticed as well is the TDo4L-13T off the 06-07 WRX's is different than the 02-05 WRX's.They have different part #'s and the compressor housing is slightly different as well as the turbine housing.I have comparrison pics at home that i haven't loaded up yet.
Interesting! What part no's are you working with for the '06-07? By that I mean MHI assembly no. It says a lot more than the Soob part.

BTW just did a log tonight in the cooler weather and dampness. 4.8 MAF V, 0 knock, 40 deg adv...G-damn! I really wish I had more time to devote to tuning/dyno testing! I'm still wondering how this pnp 15T compares to the VF39... Still got the PnP Vf39 in the box wondering what if, but I think firstly I'll put on the V7 STI TMIC and my "stage 2" pnp manifolds and see how I like it. Still so many things on the garage floor to go on the car like the V8 STI struts with Prodrive springs and the Brembo STI brakes...I wish I could do this for a living!
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