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Old 03-06-2007, 04:28 PM   #1
jblaine
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Default Discuss: Water and water+meth tuning

I've read the thread over at Aquamist's forums completely. Not for lack of trying, and no offense to the posters there, but I found it lacking in modern real-world data.

The 1943 NACA reports are useful (if you can extract them from NASA's very tantrum-prone server), but it seems high time this area was evaluated again.

Yes, I know, we'd all love to have per-cylinder pressure sensors, engine dynos, and all sorts of fun and expensive equipment. I know we don't, and I know it's out of reach, but I have to believe that everyone is interested in using the tools we have to determine somewhat conclusive information about :

* best water:fuel ratios
* best water+meth:fuel ratios
* timing adjustment logic
* anything else

I'm looking to gather water/meth injection testing results from at least the last few decades in this thread.

If anyone has anything to contribute, or if anyone else wants to join the search for good information, please chime in as you find things.

Here's what NASA/NACA has to offer from the end of WWII:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evaluation of centrifugal compressor performance with water injection (1951)

Abstract: The effects of water injection on a compressor are presented. To determine the effects of varying water-air ratio, the compressor was operated at a constant equivalent impeller speed over a range of water-air ratios and weight flows. Operation over a range of weight flows at one water-air ratio and two inlet air temperatures was carried out to obtain an indication of the effects of varying inlet air temperature. Beyond a water-air ratio of 0.03 there was no increase in maximum air-weight flow, a negligible rise in peak total-pressure ratio, and a decrease in peak adiabatic efficiency. An increase in inlet air temperature resulted in an increase in the magnitude of evaporation. An analysis of data indicated that the magnitude of evaporation within the compressor impeller was small.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary report on the induction of water to the inlet air as a means of internal cooling in aircraft-engine cylinders (1943)

No Abstract Available

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Effect of several methods of increasing knock-limited power on cylinder temperatures (1944)

No Abstract Available

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Effect of water injection on knock-limited performance of a V-type 12-cylinder liquid-cooled engine (1944)

No Abstract Available

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculations of intake-air cooling resulting from water injection and of water recovery from exhaust gas (1944)

No Abstract Available

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Continuous use of internal cooling to suppress knock in aircraft engines cruising at high power (1944)

No Abstract Available

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Effect of Water-Alcohol Injection and Maximum Economy Spark Advance on Knock-Limited Performance and Fuel Economy of a Large Air-Cooled Cylinder (1945 -- direct link to PDF)
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Last edited by jblaine; 03-06-2007 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 03-06-2007, 04:51 PM   #2
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I've purchased this for $30 just now and it looks pretty good.

"Thermal balance of a LPG fuelled, four stroke SI engine with water addition • ARTICLE
Energy Conversion and Management, Volume 47, Issue 5, March 2006, Pages 570-581"

sciencedirect.com

Quote:
Tested engine specifications

Type 4 cycle, 4 cylinders
Rated speed (1000–4500) rpm
No. of cylinders 4
Bore × stroke (mm) 76 × 71.5
Displacement volume 1297 cm3
Compression ratio 7.8:1
Cooling system Water cooled
Lubrication system Force feed
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:55 PM   #3
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Diesel tech, but free, and from 2004...

"THE INFLUENCE OF WATER INJECTION ON THE THERMAL EFFICIENCY & SPECIFIC FUEL CONSUMPTION OF A CI ENGINE"

http://www.fisita.com/students/congr...apers/sc24.pdf
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:39 PM   #4
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Trying to get this (cleared for public release):

Abstract: Dynamometer studies were conducted at the U.S. Army Fuels and Lubricants Research Laboratory in an L-141 military SI engine to evaluate the effects of intake port water induction on fuel economy, power, and exhaust emissions. The engine was equipped with a variable jet carburetor to permit independent control of mass fuel and air flow as required by the constant speed-constant fuel flow-variable air flow technique used, and the intake manifold was reworked to accommodate a water induction tube at each port. Crankcase emissions controls were deleted to avoid blow-by contamination of the intake charge, and the fan and radiator were replaced by a water-to-water heat exchanger in a vented cooling system charged with treated tap water. Specification VV-G-001690 Special Grade unleaded gasoline and a MIL-L-2104C grade 30 oil were selected as the reference fuel and lubricant, while de-ionized water was used for induction purposes.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/stinet/jsp/do...28s%29&MC=&PE=
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:43 PM   #5
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And this is most definitely not supposed to be publicly available, so grab it before the dude notices or he gets sued by SAE:

"Water Injection Effects In A Single-Cylinder CFR Engine" : SAE Technical Paper 1999-01-0568

Quote:
Though analysed by a few researches, the practice of water injection in Spark Ignition Engines (SI-ICE) does not yield homogeneous results, owing to various typologies of engines used for experiments. In this paper the effects of water injection in the intake pipe are investigated from both a theoretical and experimental viewpoint. Pressure vs. time diagrams were recorded on a single-cylinder CFR engine at AGIP PETROLI, Priolo (CT). Tests were performed according to Research and Motor Method (ASTM). Water was supplied by a continuous injection system inclusive of comparatively high pressure pump. The engine was fed with low O.N. base gasoline (cheap products, intermediate of refinery processes). The water to fuel mass flow rate ratio was varied in the range 0 to 1.5. The NOx emissions measurements confirm the tremendous effectiveness of water injection in reducing the engine environmental impact. Test data have been used to implement a detonation model that allows to predict water injection effects. Results have shown that water injection really represents a new way to avoid detonation, to reduce compression work and to control NOx formation in SI engines.
http://not2fast.wryday.com/thermo/wa...99-01-0568.pdf (Direct PDF link)
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Old 03-17-2007, 10:18 AM   #6
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*crickets*
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Old 03-18-2007, 05:30 PM   #7
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I have the Aquamist but it is not UTEC tuned yet. I heard WI can be hard on the SB, pistons, cylinder walls . right - wrong?
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Old 03-18-2007, 06:11 PM   #8
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I am surprised that there are no recent tests data on the SAE library.
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Old 03-18-2007, 06:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
I am surprised that there are no recent tests data on the SAE library.
Any one have an opinion if WI is harder on the SB.
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Old 03-18-2007, 06:22 PM   #10
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What is SB?
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Old 03-18-2007, 06:35 PM   #11
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SB - short block, or the subaru engine case with internals..
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Old 03-18-2007, 06:38 PM   #12
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Thank you...
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:47 PM   #13
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Why would WI be hard on the short block? When properly tuned you see cooler EGTs. Every one we have torn down after running WI or WI/meth injection actually looks super clean inside. I suppose if you pushed WAY too much water through the motor something would start to show, but there is nothing magical about spraying water into the air charge, it is in fact very simular to spraying fuel into the air charge.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:27 AM   #14
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Two common arguments I've heard for WI being bad for the block. 1. If you use meth, it is corrosive. 2. Too much water (like too much fuel) will wash the oil from the cylinder walls. Both are true, but how much they effect the life of the block, beats me. At least for too much water causing bore wash, don't spray so much water.

Now here is another one I heard with regards to the old WWII airplanes and WI. If you spray too much water and it vaporizes inside the cylinder, since water expands more then fuel (so they say, I don't know, and I might be remembering part of this wrong), it can drastically increase in-cylinder pressures to the point of causing serious damage. I assume this requires A LOT of water. Again, this could be bogus, I don't know. Just a related story I heard about damage to blocks from WI.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:39 AM   #15
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That would be a rediculous amount of injected water wouldn't it? to wash oil off the cylinder bore? It wouldn't have to be enough water to push the Air:Water+Fuel ratio well below 9:1 wouldn't it? It seems like an absurd amount of water injection would be required.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine View Post
Trying to get this (cleared for public release):

Abstract: Dynamometer studies were conducted at the U.S. Army Fuels and Lubricants Research Laboratory in an L-141 military SI engine to evaluate the effects of intake port water induction on fuel economy, power, and exhaust emissions. The engine was equipped with a variable jet carburetor to permit independent control of mass fuel and air flow as required by the constant speed-constant fuel flow-variable air flow technique used, and the intake manifold was reworked to accommodate a water induction tube at each port. Crankcase emissions controls were deleted to avoid blow-by contamination of the intake charge, and the fan and radiator were replaced by a water-to-water heat exchanger in a vented cooling system charged with treated tap water. Specification VV-G-001690 Special Grade unleaded gasoline and a MIL-L-2104C grade 30 oil were selected as the reference fuel and lubricant, while de-ionized water was used for induction purposes.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/stinet/jsp/do...28s%29&MC=&PE=
Wasn't too useful. Oh well. And it cost me like $30 to get it.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
I am surprised that there are no recent tests data on the SAE library.
There may very well be, but I'm not a member of SAE.
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Old 06-17-2007, 01:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
Two common arguments I've heard for WI being bad for the block. 1. If you use meth, it is corrosive. 2. Too much water (like too much fuel) will wash the oil from the cylinder walls. Both are true, but how much they effect the life of the block, beats me. At least for too much water causing bore wash, don't spray so much water.

Now here is another one I heard with regards to the old WWII airplanes and WI. If you spray too much water and it vaporizes inside the cylinder, since water expands more then fuel (so they say, I don't know, and I might be remembering part of this wrong), it can drastically increase in-cylinder pressures to the point of causing serious damage. I assume this requires A LOT of water. Again, this could be bogus, I don't know. Just a related story I heard about damage to blocks from WI.
The amount of time that the vapor of Meth is in your intake/combustion tract is insignificant for corrosion. It actually does a phenomenal job at keeping the tract clean and keeping the piston-head/combustion chamber from developing accumulation of carbon-deposits. Think of it as a "steam-cleaner" for your engine.

Second...
Water's effect of cooling when it evaporates, makes the in-cylinder charge contract and lessens the pressure....yes, the water expands but it condenses the air much more.
The problem with spraying too much water is a form of "hydro-lock"....where the intake charge isn't able to be compressed as normal...and that causes insane in-cylinder pressures.....very rare if installed/tuned correctly.
One would need to spray a massive amount of water to have this happen.

Shame that there isn't really that much "new" info around on this subject. I do recall that Volvo used W/I on their cars some time back, though.

Be good,
TomK
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Old 06-20-2007, 03:44 PM   #19
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jeff, give me a few more days and i might be collecting some 1st hand data myself...

-ken
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Old 06-27-2007, 04:30 PM   #20
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If you do a google search for ISSN 0280-3902 you will find a gzipped Postscript file in the results (Title of paper is "Increasing the Efficiency of SI-Engines by Spark Advance Control and Water Injection").

There is a Google link there "View as text" which shows the entire paper except the illustrations.

Somehow, I have the PDF with the illustrations. I may have purchased it. I honestly don't recall.

At any rate, I consider this information now publicly available due to the Google find, so here's the PDF file hosted by me. I suggest you right-click and save it to your local host:

http://www.kickflop.net/temp/Spark-A...iksson1997.pdf

Cliff Notes:

Test engine on engine dyno kept at constant RPM and load (LOW, non-FI). Ionization sensor(s) used for in-cylinder pressure monitoring. Automatic ignition timing adjuster hooked to ionization sensor. Fogged water mist inserted into induction path. Results ensue. See Figure 5 in paper for the meat. 5 degrees of added timing brought torque up past its non-WI peak.

Last edited by jblaine; 06-27-2007 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:00 PM   #21
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The book "Internal combustion Engine Fundamentals" by J.B Heyward is a "must-have" for those who wants to uncover the mystery the engine. Highly recommended. Published by McGraw-Hill. 1988
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:10 PM   #22
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Agreed 100000000%. It's been sitting next to my bed for the last year now.

The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine by Sir Harry Ricardo (5th Edition) is another "must have", in my opinion. I paid $145 or so for mine via the link below 18 months ago. It's only $70 USD now... sigh.

http://www.ricardo.com/ricardoStore/...ion=2&P_ID=149
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Old 08-14-2007, 04:50 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
jeff, give me a few more days and i might be collecting some 1st hand data myself...

-ken
Anything to share yet? Been awhile.

Here's all I have so far. It's always slow-going with me and my schedule/motivation level, so I'll use this post as my starting point.

Mix: Roughly 70/30 (water/meth)
Boost: 17-18.5psi across all runs (sprayed and not sprayed)
Injection Amount: ~20%
Method: DataLogLab processing of Hydra CSV files. 4 averaged pulls with WI on, 4 averaged pulls with WI off. Same day, same hour. Roll on throttle at 2500RPMs in 3rd Gear.
Environment FWIW: 90F, ~60% humidity
Caveat: Power figures on axis are VERY rough. Irrelevant to topic.
WI STATE OF TUNING: AFRs roughly 11.6:1, timing roughly 3 degrees advanced up to 4000RPM and 5 degrees thereafter


Last edited by jblaine; 08-14-2007 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:04 PM   #24
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Good post with practical results - how does the water flow MAP looked like and nozzle size.
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:46 PM   #25
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unfortunately jeff i don't have anything to add yet. boxes of parts sit there and mock me while i have become extraordinarily sidetracked with buying a house and moving... i just keep my eyes focused on that nice two story two car garage!

life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans, right??
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