Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday July 31, 2016
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-08-2007, 10:30 AM   #1
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default Lift your wrx thread: Ground Control springs on Tokico D-specs, etc

I've found many suggestions of such a combo but haven't found evidence of anyone putting the idea into practice. I'm contemplating the idea as I want smooth, adjustable struts with no drop and 200/185 spring rates. Has anyone tried such a combination? I think that the tokico d-specs would probably work with the ground control sleves, but GC cannot confirm as they do not know the diameter of the tokico shock bodies. The tokicos also have a "cap" on the top of the body which I am not sure will allow the use of sleves, even with duct tape/shims. Any suggestions or feedback would be great!

d-specs:

duct tape mod (courtesy of Patrick Olsen)

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by ten80; 03-08-2007 at 08:12 PM.
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 03-08-2007, 12:46 PM   #2
pjensen641
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 36777
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
WRB

Default

I'd love to accomplish this too. I would use D-specs over Konis just becuase fundimentally I believe the whole "insert" concept is poor at best. I can't believe than no manufacturer has come out with NON lowering springs. I know Pinks only lower 1/2" or so, but I would really rather not sacrifice ANY bump travel. Those spring rates are exactly what I was thinking too. Hell this car is called the WRX for a reason...World Rally eXperimental. Why the heck has no one come out with a suspension package for those of use that want to have great handling on less than perfect roads. Actually, with the weight of my sub and trailer hitch in the back, I'd like to raise the rear spring height by 3/8-1/2" or so.

Ten80 - Have you ever tried to contact Eibach or someone else to see about a custom spring. I have heard that it might not be as expensive as you think. I wonder if we could get a group together to lower the price on such a spring.

Also, I have seen your posts about the Forester suspension on your ride. Why are you changing from that? Summer vs winter set-up?
pjensen641 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 02:00 PM   #3
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

We are thinking on the same wavelength! I drive on rough, dirt roads, deep snow, and cary tons of bikes, skis, etc on long road trips. I don't want my car slammed but I love responsive handling. I've put a lot of thought into non-lowering springs and here are the few options I've come up with:

1. Ground Control springs+sleeves - fit only OEM, STi, and AGX struts AFAIK. 10-12" springs should give +1-2" ride height, spring rates from 100-1000lbs/in! (edit: must use 12" springs to maintain full travel at 1" lift)
2. Swift Forester springs. 173f/112-179r lbs, 11.2"F/13"R springs $269 group buy on subaruforester.org
3. Whiteline Control FXT springs, 200f/110-175r lbs/in, 11.75"F/12.68"R $330 shipped from globalperformanceparts.com
4. Ksport GR (gravel) coilovers, 392f/280r lbs/in, +/- 1" ride height $1400 from various vendors
5. FSTi JDM suspension, ~205f/194r lbs/in, + 1.5"f/1"r (slightly uneven) $700-900, very rare
6. DMS/Proflex/RS&SP/etc rally suspension $2000-10000 + costly maintenance
7. OEM 2003+ forester suspension. 2" lift, very soft springs, fairly serious loss of camber front and rear. Not ideal.

for reference, I measured 04 wrx wagon springs to be 11.75"f/12.68"R and 163/144 lbs/in

I enjoy the FSTi suspension on pavement, but on gravel, it's a little choppy, especially with the RCE drop camber plates I used to level out the ride height. I want something with more sensitive damping, with similar ride height and spring rates. For reference, rally gravel suspension usually runs ~225f/200r lbs/in springs.

My inspiration is the now famous lifted STi which ran 9" front and 10" rear Ground control springs. The downside to that car was that the STi struts are slightly shorter than wrx units and would have very little droop travel with such a setup. I measured about 4" front travel and 6" rear on the set I have sitting in my garage.

As for custom spring rates, there's no need with GC coils as they come in a million flavors. I'm waiting on measurements from my friend's Tokico's before proceeding to GC sleeves

Last edited by ten80; 11-26-2007 at 09:43 PM.
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 02:36 PM   #4
pjensen641
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 36777
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
WRB

Default

Wonderful info...

Do you have any idea what the bump/rebound travel at stock ride height for both Stock and D-spec struts? My motorcycle suspension experiance would tell me I need 30-40% of the total travel in rebound stroke for the ideal rough roads set up.

I have heard a rumor that the D-specs are shorter than stock struts..which sucks. Do you know anything about this.

My gehtto thought right now in order to gain back 1/2" lost by Wagon Pinks is to cut a spacer to sit above the strut tops. This would require longer strut top studs which may may not be possible to change out (are they molded in?) However, I think that the part of the top that protrudes above the shock tower and keeps everything centered would still be far enough trough to do its job. The beauty of this method is that, if the D-specs are shorter, the Pinks would tend to lower enough to get the correct suspension rebound travel, while the spacer gains you back the height lost. Alternatively, one could source top plates (front and rear) that raise the ride height...something that most plates used to do.
pjensen641 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 03:30 PM   #5
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

I had the same though about spacers. I'm thinking of making a CAD drawing and having a batch made in 1/4" thick aluminum. The top hat studs can easily accomodate the extra height.

If the d-specs are shorter, then I'm hosed. I'm not very worried about droop travel since I don't think that I'll be going at high speeds on rough roads, but I certainly don't want less than my stock wrx struts. My next option would be to run Forester GR2's with the ground controls, a cheaper, albeit not ideal situation.

supposedly, recce02 cleared this jump on his D-spec (with welded reinforcements) equipped car. I think you are correct in thinking that the larger oil volume, as compared to Konis, makes for a more durable strut.



edit: supposedly there is an 04+ version of the D-specs out. Great, I have some 02-03's on the way

Last edited by ten80; 03-08-2007 at 03:49 PM.
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 05:32 PM   #6
drees
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2003 Silver Wagon
Tuned with Enginuity

Default

Yeah, he was running D-specs on his RS in that jump!

Don't worry about the rear strut compatibility, just pick up the spacers from scooby931 spacers TurnInConcepts.
drees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 06:34 PM   #7
pjensen641
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 36777
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
WRB

Default

Yes....I saw that pic in the motorsport forum. Did you also read the post where he said that he was working with Tokico and they were giving him struts for free so that he could do the testing. This is one of the great selling points to me. It tells me they are serious about going after a robust design that will take the ocassional rough road. This is a totally different view than Koni has....they say that the struts aren't designed for rapid full travel cycling.

Note that recce02 has welded some gussets on the lower shock body. From the description they brace the lower shock body to the hub flanges. I am not too sure I would go welding on a sealed/pressurized tank of oil...however, a bolt on solution might be good. Of course...I will never be doing anything close to stage rally or rallyx...I just want to be able to go along gravel roads at a reasonable pace.
pjensen641 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2007, 11:47 PM   #8
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

Talked to Mark at Ground control today and it seems that after reviewing some measurements, the tokicos should work with the GC sleeves and springs. The metal caps look like they are just crimped on and shouldn't be difficult to remove for installation of the sleeves.
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2007, 10:48 AM   #9
pjensen641
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 36777
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
WRB

Default

Bump...

Did you ever get dimensions on the Tokicos, or haven't recieved them yet? I figured those caps were holding the upper seals/bushings in. I will be suprized if thye are easy to remove but maybe. I definitly wouldn't have my face near them when removing in case it would allow any pressure inside to pop the top off. The GC solution seems nice if it allows full bump travel without coil bind. I am hoping they will give ~0.50" drop thru 1.00" raise. I just wish the damn things weren't almost 2X the cost of regular springs.
pjensen641 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 09:24 PM   #10
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

Yep, I did take measurements and I have springs and sleeves on the way. I'll snap some pictures next week and post measurements. I think that the caps simply hold the seals on. I'm going to give tokico a call and see if I can find out.
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 04:39 AM   #11
EBWRC#1
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 86843
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: 500 Abarth !!!
Vehicle:
Io Sono
a 500 Driver !

Default

I soo want those tokicos!!
EBWRC#1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 08:42 AM   #12
Uncle Scotty
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK buy Nates beans
westcoastroasting.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjensen641 View Post
Wonderful info...

Do you have any idea what the bump/rebound travel at stock ride height for both Stock and D-spec struts? My motorcycle suspension experiance would tell me I need 30-40% of the total travel in rebound stroke for the ideal rough roads set up.

I have heard a rumor that the D-specs are shorter than stock struts..which sucks. Do you know anything about this.

My gehtto thought right now in order to gain back 1/2" lost by Wagon Pinks is to cut a spacer to sit above the strut tops. This would require longer strut top studs which may may not be possible to change out (are they molded in?) However, I think that the part of the top that protrudes above the shock tower and keeps everything centered would still be far enough trough to do its job. The beauty of this method is that, if the D-specs are shorter, the Pinks would tend to lower enough to get the correct suspension rebound travel, while the spacer gains you back the height lost. Alternatively, one could source top plates (front and rear) that raise the ride height...something that most plates used to do.

...if they ARE shorter, it isn't by very much...

I compared them to(used) AGX's side by side and found no dimentional differences between the...and I did stand them up, side by side and they were, except for color(and obvious usage of the AGX's) virtually identical.


I would REALLY like to try the GC's on the d-specs and be able to 'tune' the whole thing just the way I'd want it.
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2007, 12:16 AM   #13
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

The official word is in, Tokicos are NOT shorter than 02/03 struts. On top of that, my gamble paid off as I was able to easily pop the top off one of the struts, which I received today. Looks like ground control sleeves will work just fine and I should be receiving those next week. I'll be sure to post pictures

From the looks of it, I'd have to say that Tokico and Subaru are in bed together, so to speak. It is obvious that they were made in the same factory or at least with the same machinery.

Keep in mind I'm comparing them to 02/03 wagon struts and the front hub mounting tabs reflect the difference in track width.




Last edited by ten80; 03-17-2007 at 03:26 PM.
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2007, 12:29 AM   #14
LastResort
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99289
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default

Are you going to be modifying the "cap" to clear the sleeves, but still remain in place?
LastResort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2007, 12:50 AM   #15
Uncle Scotty
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK buy Nates beans
westcoastroasting.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastResort View Post
Are you going to be modifying the "cap" to clear the sleeves, but still remain in place?

ya just pound the cap back on after installing the sleeves
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2007, 09:33 AM   #16
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

The cap is 57mm in diameter which is 6.5mm smaller than the inner diameter of the 2.5" spring. This should clear unless the spring binds a little during compression, although I've never heard of this happening. I can always grind the outside of the cap a little and reduce it's diameter by a few mm if something is out of alignment. I shouldn't forget to thank Mark at Ground Control for his time and help in figuring this out Maybe there will be a GC "tokico kit" after this is all said and done!

I almost forgot to mention that I'm looking for some dust boots for these. I figure that there must be a shock out there with a ~22mm piston and 50-60mm body. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2007, 10:17 AM   #17
LastResort
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99289
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default

LastResort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2007, 11:17 AM   #18
pjensen641
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 36777
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
WRB

Default

Oh sweet...looks like the cap is not the primary seal holder...its just there as an extra collar to add support.

It would be pretty cool if you could take the stock wagon hub mount and replace the Tokico hub mount. However, that would take some welding, and might screw up the strut.

Any word on GC coilover set up, and the Tokico warranty?
pjensen641 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2007, 02:06 AM   #19
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

No word on how ground control coils affect the warranty, however, they do fit on the d-specs! After some late-night grinding, painting, and cutting, the front struts are assembled. Here are the steps I took:

0.5. pop the strut caps off carefully using a screwdriver and hammer. DON"T DING THE PISTON!
1. cut spring seats off struts using angle grinder and cutting wheel. This is super easy if someone holds the strut and rotates it slowly while you cut. I ground the edges smooth and they look very good.
2. I painted the cut edges with enamel engine paint. it dries quickly and holds up well to water, salt, and dirt.
3. I then cut the front sleeves so that they are just short enough for the caps to fit back on and press on the sleeves when they are installed. This in combination with a soda can shim (one can is just enough) keeps the sleeves from rotating and rattling.
4. add bump stops, springs, spring cap, washer, then top hat.
5. Presto! front struts are assembled.


I found that the 10" front spring is perfect. I can put a ton of preload on it if I desire or I can lower it about 1". I bet I'll end up running it with just enough preload to keep the spring in place. Being linear springs, these shouldn't sag very much.

I did run into a snafu with the rear struts. GC sent me 03 rear tophat spring seats and I need 04 since I have some new 04 group N tops! I chose 04 rear tops because they are not as tall and should allow for a longer spring. I think that I could fit a 12" spring in the rear but I ordered a 10" so that I have more room for adjustments since the rear collars are very short.

Hopefully, these go in this weekend along with my sedan control arms and adjustable lateral links!

Last edited by ten80; 03-29-2007 at 02:17 AM.
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2007, 10:48 AM   #20
pjensen641
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 36777
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
WRB

Default

Thanks for the update, been checkin back here everyday. I will be intrested to see your final ride height adjustment range. I am looking for something in the +1" to -1" range, so your data on coil length will be very helpful.

BTW, what spring rates did you go with? 225F/200R? Did you just order the regular GC kit for the WRX, or is this set up custom?
pjensen641 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2007, 11:11 AM   #21
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

I went with 200f/r because they didn't have 185lb/in rears and I don't want my suspension to be as stiff as was my fiancee's wagon on STi springs (224/194 if I remember correctly). It looks like I have about -1/+3" adjustment on the front struts. Rear struts are a different story because the spring collars are super short. I'm not certain if I want to cut them and I'll probably end up doing a test fit before chopping them down. I like how the caps hold the sleeves and make the setup look complete, but I might not be able to run them in back. I used 10" front and rear coils and was sent a custom kit with 02/03 wrx rear spring tops which I need to exchange. speaking of which, I'm going to call GC right now!

If anyone knows why my picture comes up as a hyperlink rather than an actual picture, please let me know!
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2007, 11:39 AM   #22
Uncle Scotty
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK buy Nates beans
westcoastroasting.com

Default

....ya shoulda cut the bumpstops a bit and ya CAN get a dustboot to fit
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2007, 12:30 PM   #23
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

I am indeed tempted to cut the bumpstops. they are off a 97 outback and I suspect they are a little too long, even though my car won't be lowered. What exactly are you suggesting for a dust boot?

Mark at GC is awesome- I have some 04 rear spring seats on the way, so I should be able to put everything in this weekend
ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2007, 03:59 AM   #24
ten80
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53625
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: AK
Vehicle:
00 16' FXT

Default

Installed the new suspension today and it took forever since I also did sedan control arms and sway bar, along with adjustable lateral links. Even though I eyeballed camber and toe values for front and rear, my wagon handles very well and the ride seems very smooth, as expected. I'll post a better review after I get an alignment and finish adjusting the front and rear ride heights. I also figured out that I can stick a rubber boot over the coil spring instead of inside it. I searched all over town for some long enough boots but the best I could find were still 2" too short. They do cover past the piston seal and should do a good job protecting the strut.



ten80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2007, 10:40 AM   #25
qoncept
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44762
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Palo, IA
Vehicle:
2013 BRZ
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ten80 View Post
3. I then cut the front sleeves so that they are just short enough for the caps to fit back on and press on the sleeves when they are installed. This in combination with a soda can shim (one can is just enough) keeps the sleeves from rotating and rattling.
Good idea. Looks like we have very different goals, but had ran in to simliar issues. I used skunk2 coilover sleeves on stock struts with Konis and after modifying the housings for more bump travel, I needed to grind down the length of the sleeves some. I just eyeballed it, so I actually have about 1mm between the cap of the Koni and the sleeve, but I don't think my suspension will ever see full droop.

I've still got next to no bump travel with my Noltec plates (less than 1" to the short bumpstop), but the Ground Control plates should be here next week and give me nearly an inch and a half more. Mark at GC was also very helpful for me.



qoncept is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS CO: WRX Prodrive springs on Tokico D-Specs Robbie_B Suspension/Brakes/Handling 14 12-24-2008 12:58 AM
RCE springs and Tokico D-Specs pshipp Suspension/Brakes/Handling 13 11-26-2007 04:44 PM
Cobb springs w/ Tokico D-specs... sdkim7 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 0 04-26-2007 11:33 AM
Pics of subies dropped on Tokico D-Specs and springs? Request Subydude81 Member's Car Gallery 3 02-21-2007 09:50 PM
Can the agx's fit on the wrx with the ground control springs? scoobyruman New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC 4 04-26-2001 04:42 AM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2016 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2016, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.