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Old 07-03-2007, 12:11 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by disaster999 View Post
i have another question, on the driver side mani, the outlet of the mani that meets up with the crossover pipe, should that be ported as well or it doesnt matter?

my friend tells me i should because of better flow. if i remember anything from my fluids class, i think it make sense. the exhaust would slow down quite a bit because of sudden volume change if theres no transition between small diameter and big diameter, but i just want to make sure

thanks
Yes, you should absolutely port that sucker up to the gasket and then obtain an aftermarket crossover. Do the same thing to the driver's side. Do a quick once over on the manifold to uppipe flange if you're still running stock (don't gasket match that one unless you're running a larger aftermarket uppipe) but do gasket match the head to manifold ports.

The idea is to smooth out the flow, not increase the volume. The whole point is to get everything to the turbo faster. You're not magically increasing the amount of exhaust flowing to the thing, just letting it get there a little more easily. When you're doing this, the basic idea is to taper all of the flanges so the transition is smooth like your mother's bosom.
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Old 07-12-2007, 12:03 AM   #27
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Ok, so I am probably going to get e-ganged for saying this but.....wtf.

Ok, p&p the exhaust manifold...well you cant say PORT the exhaust manifold because all your really doing is port MATCHING. OK, so you tapered the last 1" of each side of the manifold and took off appox. 1-2mm of material. WOW!

Gains are seen and it probably has that placebo effect more than anything. I am NOT doubting the gains of a p&p, just saying its not the god of all modifications. Why not just buy a set of tubular headers...OR, for those of you that say "DIY p&p costs almost nothing and gains alot, as opposed to a $1k tubular exhaust manifold", you could get some stainless tubing and fab up your own. Probably $200 in materials, including CNC flanges. Gains would bo WAY the hell better.

I say, skrew it and just build your own exhaust manifold. Why try and fix something broken when you can build something great?
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Old 07-12-2007, 12:08 AM   #28
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There's nothing really wrong with the stock ones until you're putting down big numbers, aside from the restrictive crossover. And most people aren't comfortable with a mandrel bender and a tig welder but they can work a dremel/die grinder.
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Old 07-12-2007, 12:19 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Td5turbo View Post
Ok, so I am probably going to get e-ganged for saying this but.....wtf.

Ok, p&p the exhaust manifold...well you cant say PORT the exhaust manifold because all your really doing is port MATCHING. OK, so you tapered the last 1" of each side of the manifold and took off appox. 1-2mm of material. WOW!
I'll start your butt-raping right here.

Like I said, it's all about the flow. You're removing major restrictions at the flanges because the stock stuff works but isn't ideal for flow. There's one good reason for it. See Here.

I removed anywhere from 4-8mm of material when I tapered mine so roughly a quarter of an inch at the crossover flanges. Yes, you're absolutely correct about that because it's not a "true" port and polish, but that's such a semantic argument.

Quote:
Gains are seen and it probably has that placebo effect more than anything. I am NOT doubting the gains of a p&p, just saying its not the god of all modifications. Why not just buy a set of tubular headers...
You're not doubting the gains? Then what does that first line in this quote say? It's not placebo. Get a set and do this (along with an aftermarket crossover (!!!)) then come back to me and say it's placebo.

Tubular headers are $Texas. Have you looked? Race prepped and all of that...sure. But on a DD? Not everyone wants that in a daily driver.

Quote:
OR, for those of you that say "DIY p&p costs almost nothing and gains alot, as opposed to a $1k tubular exhaust manifold", you could get some stainless tubing and fab up your own. Probably $200 in materials, including CNC flanges. Gains would bo WAY the hell better.
Sure, but again not everyone wants to go that route nor knows how to weld or even has a welder at their immediate disposal. You can go ahead and fab that stuff up yourself, I'll be scooting around with my hand ported manifolds while you're talking about how awesome your headers are going to be.

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I say, skrew it and just build your own exhaust manifold. Why try and fix something broken when you can build something great?
Go for it. I'm sure that with enough backing you could have your own store doing just that. For some, tapering some iron is satisfying and is anal retentive enough.

Anyway, if you're skeptical then get a set and do it yourself or buy an all ready ported set. And while you're at it you might as well throw in a catless uppipe of some nature as well. Those are dyno proven at something like 10 whp.
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Old 07-12-2007, 03:02 AM   #30
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Thats all you have? haha. Dont take this as a personal argument or a bashing, its more of a discussion about how I, td5, and you, the "believers" have somewhat of a differing opinion. I am not here to try and win an online battle. But I would love to keep discusing this subject!

I have a 4" downpipe, perrin uppipe and full 3" catback with cat-deletes. That and a AP stage 2 base map. This is all for "performance". I see full boost (15-16psi) under 3k rpm at a 5th gear dig on the freeway...care to explain?

I am SURE the port matching will do something, but like I said its not going to be like ubber magical rush of no lag, and instant throttle response. Its just not! Sure it will HELP, but its not going to help anywhere near as much as a fully tubular, port-matched manifold would. You, the generic you refering to "the believers" as I will call you--not trying to be a smart ass or anything-- say that port matching should be donw by a professional and seeing as you would have to drop your manifold, setup an appointment, have the shop work on it and give it back to you...I would assume your car would have at least 3 days downtime. Most shops arent very fast, nor do they really care about small things. Big things pay more money, little things take up time...they are a business afterall.

It would probably take a week of after-work downtime to complete an exhaust manifold by yourself with a welder and possibly a pipe-bender (or oldschool cut/chop and weld bends). Better product in the long run.

I know, I know, its way easier to p&p a manifold, but easy is for women, or girlie-men for you women that take offense to that statement.

All I am trying to say is that the gains you will see of a port match arent going to be breath-taking. I have spent tons of time doing manifold swaps for sr20's and also working with port matching their manifold and while you may say they are different engines, this is true, but the claimed magical gains are still their and they are lies!

In no way could a port match be as good as a fully tubular exhaust manifold, correct? I am going to assume you agree on that. OK, so a tubular manifold says faster response and what not right? WRONG. The MAIN purpose of enlarging the runners is to create flow...and this extra flow carries the boost to a higher RPM. So your turbo doesnt "run out of steam" so to speak.

I am willing to bet money that ANY reputable manifold company you call (Peakboost, Full-Race, Hybrid Dynamics, etc.) will say the same thing. Your power isnt going to jump up, but more your power curve is going to shift with a slight increase. This is the placebo effect. Top HP or Torque is slightly changed, but a shift in the curve occurs because the turbo can now breath.

This is a long, somewhat boring response so I will end it by saying the port match is a good idea, if you want to rip things apart for less than "magical" gains. I thinks it a better idea to go with a tubular manifold and have way better flow.
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Old 07-12-2007, 07:56 AM   #31
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In no way could a port match be as good as a fully tubular exhaust manifold, correct? I am going to assume you agree on that.
i do not agree.

and neither do the rigolis.
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:50 AM   #32
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I know, I know, its way easier to p&p a manifold, but easy is for women, or girlie-men for you women that take offense to that statement.
I like your ad hom attack there. Why don't you talk to Grimm or some guys at Crucial and say that first line verbatim. Seems to me that it's lucrative enough and has a positive effect for the customer. They're not selling snake oil.

Quote:
This is a long, somewhat boring response so I will end it by saying the port match is a good idea, if you want to rip things apart for less than "magical" gains. I thinks it a better idea to go with a tubular manifold and have way better flow.
Are you running your "magical" tubular headers or are you still stock, sitting on the fence until someone pokes you just right?

Enjoy your power shift to the right. We'll continue moving left for driveability's sake. 15-60 is awesomely fun, 60-125 is cool and all but will get the wrong people's attention in a hurry.
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:25 PM   #33
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I have been bashed in this thread before, but I am a going to add to it again anyway...

First off we need to get a few things explained in a way we all understand...

What spins/spools the turbo?

Sounds like a dumb question, but it isn't...

The answer is "x" cfm of exhaust flow thru the turbine at "y" resistance...

Now think about that for a bit and go read this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_...eet_per_Minute

The most important part of what you just read is "Since 200F air weighs only 80% of 70F"...

The hotter it is, the less mass it has, and the easier it will flow... This is the key to any turbo system... And it doesn't matter what type of engine it is on...

The main key to all of this is to keep the exhaust as hot as possible until it reaches the turbine...
The hotter it is, the less resistance it has in the manifolds, and in the turbine...

Now think of what changes the temp of the exhaust...
There are two things that can change this after it leaves the cylinder...
  1. Heat soak or themal transfer
  2. Changes in pressure

When you port match something to far into the port, you create a venturi that will lower the pressure, and slow the flow down because of the increase in diameter... It might not be much, but it does... You have also made the metal thinner, allowing for more thermal transfer thru it... So if you create 3" tapers on both sides, you made a 6" venturi... All of the steps in the system absorb energy in the form of heat... Now think about the number and the total length of the steps in an exhaust system... The cast system has a lot of them, a tubular header has a few... (This also explains why tubular headers running at high tempuratures loose less energy... Sounds strange, but it is true...)

If you just step the mating ports... like a step header... you have a much shorter pressure change, and it will also cut down on reversion in the port...

Does all of this sound far fetched???

Think about how many pulls have to be done with cast versus tubular headers to see max torque...

You need more with the tubular header because they loose heat a lot faster...
And they can't retain heat as long as cast manifolds after a pull... Once tubular headers are hot, the benifits appear...

So when you are trying to decrease the spool rpm, think about the heat loss and the flow at the same time...

Many people have different ways of doing this, and many of them show gains on a dyno...
But the reason they show a gain has more to do with the heat retention and cfm at the turbine than how they did it...

Remember that a turbo is designed to be able to reclaim the energy lost out of the exhaust in the form of heat...
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:27 AM   #34
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I will agree and disagree.

A turbocharger is basically a huge air pump, working off a vacuum across the exhaust turbine. Higher pressure on one side, and a low pressure on the other. Pascal's Law that all pressures will equalize...so the higher pressure (manifold) gasses want to go into the downpipe (low pressure) so they pass across the turbine. This is why a larger turbo is harder to spool, it has a harder time building up a pressure difference.

The venturi effect iss more for N/A cars. This is where collectors on headers play a MAJOR roll in a cars powerband. As the air in each runner reaches a certain velocity, relative to the other runners, and as it merges into the collector, it causes a suction. The fast moving exhaust from X cylinder creates a low pressure that literally sucks the exhaust out of cylinder Y and so on. This doesnt GIVE you more power, it mearly makes the engine more efficient at a certain RPM because the engine doesnt have to use the up-stroke to push out the exhaust...as the exhaust is already getting sucked out.

So what does this have to do with turbo cars? Well, this is why log manifolds are worse. equal length manifolds allow a constant flow of air to the turbine, making for a constant pressure difference. Full-race has a video where they testing their log manifold against their equal length manifold and the difference was like AMAZING. You should check out the video, its pretty cool!

This is why a tubular manifold is better than a port matched manifold. It creates that constant pressure difference that makes a turbine function at a constant and efficient manner.

What your talking about with the venturi effect is not totally correct. The venturi effect is like a carburator where the gas is sped up to create a low pressure. Your more talking about Bernoulli's Principle as a whole, where the venturi effect is a diminstration of this principle. Fast gases loose pressure (how planes fly) and this becomes a dancing game with exhaust manifolds. How big can we make the runners (for good flow) and still get good pressure to retain that perfect pressure difference? This is all dependent on the engine, turbo, wanted power band, and modifications done to the said engine.

And Feign...if your saying you would rather have low end torque versus higher hp, then I have to laugh at you. I dont know if you have noticed, but the EJ205 isnt exactly a torque monster. Infact, its is probably one of the funniest engines to drive around in the lower rpms...hit the gas under 2k rpm and nothing seems to happen! If you want 15-60mph fun, why not try something like higher displacement V6 or a V8? Higher hp is fun because its only really useful for spirited drives in the mountains, or in a safe environment like a track...you dont need to drive on the street very fast, now do you? Every car I have been in can go the speed limit. Try that on for size! haha.
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:57 PM   #35
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So what does this have to do with turbo cars? Well, this is why log manifolds are worse. equal length manifolds allow a constant flow of air to the turbine, making for a constant pressure difference. Full-race has a video where they testing their log manifold against their equal length manifold and the difference was like AMAZING. You should check out the video, its pretty cool!
that's pretty funny that you mention full race.

full race and i have gotten into quite a few "discussions" about the merit of EL headers, and they have stated unequivocally that they do NOT tune for equal exhaust path length.

and since it seems that you missed my reference to it the first time around, here's a link that would seem to refute the absolute unconditional supremacy of the tubular header: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=837371

then again you might think the rigolis don't know what they're doing...
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:42 PM   #36
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Just to make a point, I measured three different manufacturers "Equal Length Headers" , and guess what....

None of them are true equal length headers.....

Two are equal from head flange to collector flange, but last time I checked, Subaru heads have different length exhaust ports in the head...

The one that I measured that is off of a car has 4 different length tubes, and none of them have the same volume either...

People will always have different opinions on what type of exhaust to put on a turbo engine...
I prefer a system that retains as much heat as possible...

Td5turbo mentioned that you need a constant pressure in front of the turbine to get it to spin... I believe that is debatable... Pulses help spool a turbo too...

I have pulled my front O2 sensor and driven the car on the road to see the pressure that is in there... I would not call it a constant...
(I have done it with stock exhaust and two different headers... I went back to the manifolds...)

Equal length headers will show pressure pulses directly related to the exhaust events until the pressure in the exhaust gets past a certain point, then it will level out... (Collector/up-pipe volume has an effect on this as well as the turbine ar...)
Factory exhaust pulses as well, but the pressure starts to level out sooner and constant pressure is later...The only time either is constant is when you pass a certain flow potental of the exhaust pre turbine...
After that point is reached, you are basically past the major benifit of an equal length header... The pulses are gone... there is just alot of consistant pressure as Td5turbo mentioned...

Now that all that is there is pressure, whats the difference???

Flow and heat retention are the only differences....

Now with that said, which will spool a turbo faster,,,

x cfm at 800 degrees or the same x cfm at 1300....
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:59 AM   #37
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OK, wow...so do you guys like give your virginity to Mr. Rigoli?

He apparently makes fast drag cars. I dont feel like "googling" him but he sounds like a very strange character. Stock heads, stock manifold...running mid 8 second 1/4 mile ET's? HA! I will believe it when I can actually see it.

There is always going to be conflict on the how-to's of building a car that suits your driving style. This is all up to personal preference but I still stand behind every statement that I have made and I feel the need not to try and argue but to more state that you should not follow, but create your own ideas; test these ideas and find out for yourself what works and does not. Rigoli sounds like a crock...I laugh at his attempt to brainwash the subaru community but hey, dont listen to me i havent built a car that runs 8's and nor would I ever want to be involved in drag racing. So go on and port you manifolds in the attempt to run 8's. Dont be mad when you do not.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:42 AM   #38
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:13 AM   #39
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OK, wow...so do you guys like give your virginity to Mr. Rigoli?

I would for his car.
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:27 PM   #40
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i checked the diameter of the exhaust ports on the block and manifold, and they were the same diameter, then i checked the uppipe and the turbine inlet hole diameter and the uppipe was smaller than the turbo.
If the manifold entry openings are rounded, smooth, and the same diameter at the gasket openings, AND the turbine inlet opening is rounded, smooth, and the same diameter as the gasket opening, then someone has already PnP'd that vehicle.
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:36 PM   #41
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I will agree and disagree.

A turbocharger is basically a huge air pump, working off a vacuum across the exhaust turbine. .

No, a turbocharger is nothing more than a little girl's pinwheel.

An ENGINE is basically a huge air pump.

Think about what you're reading...don't just memorize phrases. Makes ya look dumb, especially when you call people names.

Research the tubular headers and see how many guys tried em...and went back to the cast iron stockers.
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:40 PM   #42
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Rigoli sounds like a crock...
quoted for posterity of idiocy.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:35 PM   #43
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i guess i should make another thread but oh well

i finallyfinished port and polish my mani and put it on my car. airtools are my new best friend. took it to my friends place, took an air grinder and air belt sander and port and polished the mani. made it as smooth as a babys butt.

so anyways, i took the old off, and put the new on. made sure everything is tight. i reused the gaskets tho. took it out for a spin and it seemed fine. i didnt really notice the ticking noise because while i was porting my mani, i installed my EGT gauge too and when running the wire through the firewall. the grommet fell out and dont know where it bounced to. so when i was drving it, i thought it was just road noise because i have a hole in my firewall. but today, i found the grommet, put it back into the car. drive it again. and this time i heard this weird flutter clicking noise.

it only happens when im in boost. anything in vacuum sounded normal, but when i start stepping on it and getting into boost, i hear this louder than normal clicking+fluttering sound. my friend said its exhaust leak...but i still get full boost...probably shouldnt trust my boost gauge at this point right? the ecu will accommodate for boost leak and old the wastegate till desire boost is reached right? would it be because of the reused gaskets? or something else? ill try and get a vid of the clicking if possible.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:39 PM   #44
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If the manifold entry openings are rounded, smooth, and the same diameter at the gasket openings, AND the turbine inlet opening is rounded, smooth, and the same diameter as the gasket opening, then someone has already PnP'd that vehicle.
its clearly not port and polished because it was just a straight edge. i was asking this because i checked the engine block exhaust port and the mani exhaust port and they are the same diameter. the uppipe outlet into the turbo is smaller than the turbo inlet. thats why i am asking if there is any gain. i would understand if the inlet ports are smaller than the outlet port. so if you port and polish, then it would make a difference, but if they are the same diameter, would port and polish really make that much of a difference
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:48 AM   #45
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No, a turbocharger is nothing more than a little girl's pinwheel.

An ENGINE is basically a huge air pump.

Think about what you're reading...don't just memorize phrases. Makes ya look dumb, especially when you call people names.

Research the tubular headers and see how many guys tried em...and went back to the cast iron stockers.

HAHA, holy hell. Did you finish highschool, or pay attention to ANY science class? Yes, an engine is an air pump, but a turbocharger is the principle of an air pump. Move higher pressure gas into a lower pressure system. I guess your still in second grade science class and need things a little more watered down. I do admit that I made that statement quite ambiguous, but I should have said "a turbo is nothing more than an air pump working off the ENGINE's energy to PUMP (yes that what the turbo does, pump air) air via the pressure difference (definition of a pump) of the engine's produced pressure opposed the the pressure after the turbocharger."

That video showed me nothing but a car with a trick intake manifold and rwd conversion. OK, thats cool...?

You cant tell me that just because your Borla manifold doesnt give you 60whp that a tubular setup wont do anything. I see it as plain idiocracy just as 99% of you guys see me as spilling idiocracy. So, no engineer could EVER develope a system to have a greater volumetric efficiency as a stock manifold that subaru engineers spent all of a day designing it to fit under that car? Thats plain idiocracy.

I find it amazing the strong rebutle of every bit of theory anyone trys to give.
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:52 AM   #46
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I find it amazing the strong rebutle of every bit of theory anyone trys to give.
i, for one, will not engage in a free educational session with someone who thinks this:

Quote:
a stock manifold that subaru engineers spent all of a day designing it to fit under that car?
so go bait your arguments somewhere else.
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:46 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by disaster999 View Post

so anyways, i took the old off, and put the new on. made sure everything is tight. i reused the gaskets tho...

it only happens when im in boost. anything in vacuum sounded normal, but when i start stepping on it and getting into boost, i hear this louder than normal clicking+fluttering sound. my friend said its exhaust leak...but i still get full boost...probably shouldnt trust my boost gauge at this point right? the ecu will accommodate for boost leak and old the wastegate till desire boost is reached right? would it be because of the reused gaskets? or something else? ill try and get a vid of the clicking if possible.
I've reused all the exhaust gaskets after multiple removals & reinstalls without any leaks, so you may get by that way. It won't hurt to go back over every fastener and make sure you didn't miss torquing any. Did you change any component to an aftermarket (e.g. downpipe, etc) or leave off any heatshields? Mess with spark plugs during the process?
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:03 PM   #48
disaster999
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nope, the only thing i did was take off old manifold, put new one on with egt tap.

ill seafoam my car and check for leaks that way. and retighten every nut and bolt
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:22 PM   #49
BeratE
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This is just a shot in the dark, but disaster, is your wastegate out of adjustment? Have you ever messed with it?
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:32 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Td5turbo View Post
HAHA, holy hell. Did you finish highschool, or pay attention to ANY science class? Yes, an engine is an air pump, but a turbocharger is the principle of an air pump. Move higher pressure gas into a lower pressure system. I guess your still in second grade science class and need things a little more watered down. I do admit that I made that statement quite ambiguous, but I should have said "a turbo is nothing more than an air pump working off the ENGINE's energy to PUMP (yes that what the turbo does, pump air) air via the pressure difference (definition of a pump) of the engine's produced pressure opposed the the pressure after the turbocharger."

That video showed me nothing but a car with a trick intake manifold and rwd conversion. OK, thats cool...?

You cant tell me that just because your Borla manifold doesnt give you 60whp that a tubular setup wont do anything. I see it as plain idiocracy just as 99% of you guys see me as spilling idiocracy. So, no engineer could EVER develope a system to have a greater volumetric efficiency as a stock manifold that subaru engineers spent all of a day designing it to fit under that car? Thats plain idiocracy.

I find it amazing the strong rebutle of every bit of theory anyone trys to give.
I think you're trying to say idiocy, not idiocracy...
Nothing funnier than someone unable to properly call others dumb.
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