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Old 03-20-2007, 12:53 AM   #1
sub.driver
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Default Spun bearing warranty dilemma?

Help - advice?? I think I spun a bearing, which then resulted in an oil leak! The car spun the bearing with relatively new Mobil1 at full volume, then it leaked oil (not vise versa) It sounds far fetched, but please read...
I was driving my 2004 2.0L turbo WRX (revving it rather high) when I noticed a noise from the engine. After getting out of the car, the noise was more apparrent and I drove it for a bit and then shut it down. All in all, the car probably ran for ten minutes with the engine noise (spun bearing?).
After arranging a tow, I had to move the vehicle about 100 yards, and in doing so, the noise got worse and the car dropped a couple quarts of oil, CEL, oil light, etc. (all within 20 seconds) so I immediately shut it off.
Here's the problem. I need to get it in for powertrain warranty coverage, but I realize the first thing they would check is for the oil leak, so I inspected everything and found that the oil filter had basically spun loose enough for a bulge in the gasket and a leak. I had changed the oil about 600 miles ago and didn't spill a drop until the problem occurred. My assumption is that the excessive vibration from the 'knock' loosened the oil filter enough for this to happen. I am experienced enough to double check and not make a mistake with oil filters, gaskets, etc., but I am concerned that the dealership won't believe me and deny coverage. I am absolutely sure that I did not lose oil prior to the engine failure, but I don't know whether I can be honest with the dealer. The car is now probably 2-3 quarts low with the oil filter retightened and the oil has metal in it.
I have no modifications other than a rear sway bar and stock size all season tires. I have previously had up/down pipe and BOV on the car but they came off 10k miles ago.
Any ideas????
Please no scolding - I am an adult and the information is accurate
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Old 03-20-2007, 03:20 AM   #2
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this sucks .... good luck
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Old 03-20-2007, 04:04 PM   #3
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Well being honest with the dealership is step #1 in the right direction. If you are dishonest with them and they know it, they will not be inclined to help you out in the least.

Second of all... you changed your own oil and the fault is with the filter not being tight. How again is that a repair that SOA should pay for? The filter itself if not completely tight will leak under pressure which occures when the engine is on. This means while parked you may never have seen any leaks.

Sit down with the service manager and talk to him/her about everything and be honest. Its up to them if they want to help you out. I doubt the filter came "loose" from reving the engine.
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Old 03-20-2007, 05:13 PM   #4
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Honestly..You should make sure the filter is tight, grab some old oil, and throw it in there, if you know it is not your fault, make a solid case for yourself, whenever they can possibly void your warranty, they will. best of luck.
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Old 03-20-2007, 05:14 PM   #5
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most mechanics can spot oil starvation damage in an engine with uncontaminated oil.
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Old 03-20-2007, 06:04 PM   #6
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Dude, There is no way viberation could have loosened the oil filter if it was put on properly. I totally understand where you are coming from but there has been times that I've had to punch a screw driver completely through an oil filter so I had a handle to unscrew it (never on my Subaru).

There is as much chance of that thing coming off from viberation as your oil and coolant fill caps...

Its going to be really really tough (impossible) for them to believe the motor shook the oil filter loose. Even if it did, it wasnt on tight enough.
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:05 PM   #7
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Well, the damage should not have come from oil starvation, unless it happened under cornering loads. Once again, the filter was tight and did not spill a drop until well after the bearing spun. I am still inclined not to be honest because the dealer will be skeptical as are some of you. My concern is that I mentioned the car dropped oil and there was an obvious oil leak. The mechanics will look for where it came from and if they don't find any other leaks, I'm not sure what they will conclude. I spun a bearing with good oil, and that should be covered. Perhaps I should fill the oil to a reasonable level with some good, and some used oil, just to show that there (was/is) oil in the engine - I could run the car for a few seconds to mix it. If anyone has any advice for presenting a good argument to any attempted denial of the claim, please advise. This should absolutely be covered as a spun bearing is a factory defect and not my fault. It looks like I may have to just try my luck?
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:58 AM   #8
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you can also over rev your engine and spin a bearing. The most simple way of doing that is down shifting into the wrong gear which has no rev limiter. However oil starvation can also damage a bearing. Your talking to a guy who's handed bills to people for engine repairs due to oil starvation. I know all the symptoms and signs. I bet if they take apart your engine, they will find that the camshafts in the heads are tore up. The camshafts do not have bearings. They run out of oil first. Next when the block runs low on oil and your reving the piss out of your engine... bearing damage occurs at the rods. Most likely now you have a piston with to much travel and its knocking against the head. The oil pump will also show lack of oil. Plus you'll have metal fragments through the oil passages in the block, head and oil sending unit.

rough estimate to repair? $9000

Unless you can prove your car suffered catastrophic oil loss internally with no blue smoke out the exhaust... your SOL
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Old 03-21-2007, 03:22 AM   #9
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honesty is the best policy.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:28 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sub.driver View Post
My assumption is that the excessive vibration from the 'knock' loosened the oil filter enough for this to happen.
nope.
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:20 AM   #11
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It sounds like you lost quite a bit more oil than you thought before the major spill occured. Bearings don't spin with plenty of good oil in the engine, unless there is some serious defect.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:26 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by 2fast4me View Post
Honestly..You should make sure the filter is tight, grab some old oil, and throw it in there, if you know it is not your fault, make a solid case for yourself, whenever they can possibly void your warranty, they will. best of luck.

Feel free to step away from the keyboard and stop giving advice. I'd hate to see the OP have to shell out money because he followed dumb advice. We don't hold warranty fraud in real high regard around here. You don't sound real informed on warranties and dealerships anyway, as all you seem to have for a basis is "Whenever they can they can possibly void your warranty, they will." I'd Paypal you 5 dollars to buy a clue, but I fear it'd be just as well spent by setting it on fire.


To the OP: It sounds like you'll be shelling out money anyway. Be honest with the dealership, it'll go a long way towards helping you out rather than hurting you. I have yet to see a filter get jarred loose by engine knocking. The owner who had my car before me had an oil leak and spun the #4 rod bearing. The piston was actually hitting the cylinder head, but it didn't shake the filter loose. As already posted, they'll be able to tell once the motor is apart what the cause was. Also, if you put in brand new oil and try to "mix it around" it's only going to hurt your credibility as it'll raise some red flags with the dealership and the techs. Talk to the service manager and be honest, it'll be better for you and them.
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Old 03-21-2007, 04:09 PM   #13
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As I mentioned a spun bearing is 99 out of a 100 times the owners fault. Lack of oil. Maybe a pump failure but they will be able to tell if the pump works, and if it does then the only other possible way you can spin a bearing is to not have oil in the motor...

There is no amount of violent shaking that can unscrew an oil filter. If there was there would be ALOT more damage, and I'm talking things like exhaust welds broken broken engine/transmission mounts etc etc.

Your saying you were driving. Spontaneously spun a bearing (which never happens). Then the engine is trying to hide its own failure by unscrewing the oil filter...

Have them look at it. Be honest. See what they will do. THEN find a Subaru shop to put in a shortblock to save yourself some money. There are alot of good companies that make really nice blocks for good money...Axis for one...
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Old 03-21-2007, 04:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrik View Post
rough estimate to repair? $9000
Bull****. I have done enough spun bearings on Supras to know that ANY spun bearing can cause that much of damage. The oil pump pickup as well as the oil filter temporarily while it was on would catch more then enough of the metal shavings. there also isn't enough room for the piston to travel and hit the head from a spun bearing. the crank can be saved. it will have to more then likely be cut a thousandths off to have a fresh material for the bearings. Over sized bearings as well, a balance on the crank, and the rods rezised. no way close to 9000. as for the camshafts, they will have some scoring for sure, but can be reground. His block will be need to be rehoned but not likely bored over. i would replace the pistons though.
as always my .02.
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Old 03-21-2007, 04:58 PM   #15
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Bull****. I have done enough spun bearings on Supras to know that ANY spun bearing can cause that much of damage. The oil pump pickup as well as the oil filter temporarily while it was on would catch more then enough of the metal shavings. there also isn't enough room for the piston to travel and hit the head from a spun bearing. the crank can be saved. it will have to more then likely be cut a thousandths off to have a fresh material for the bearings. Over sized bearings as well, a balance on the crank, and the rods rezised. no way close to 9000. as for the camshafts, they will have some scoring for sure, but can be reground. His block will be need to be rehoned but not likely bored over. i would replace the pistons though.
as always my .02.
-Thomas
Supra is not subaru... not even close. Plus your talking to a service advisor with plenty of experience in this field. $9000 is VERY accurate here in alaska for new block, heads and cams and labor. did I say new? I believe I did. You can argue with me all you like but I got subaru training and experience to back me up. I can't be convinced your right when I have first hand experience with turbo subaru engines that say otherwise.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:05 PM   #16
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Supra is not subaru... not even close. Plus your talking to a service advisor with plenty of experience in this field. $9000 is VERY accurate here in alaska for new block, heads and cams and labor. did I say new? I believe I did. You can argue with me all you like but I got subaru training and experience to back me up. I can't be convinced your right when I have first hand experience with turbo subaru engines that say otherwise.
why on earth would you buy a new head and block? thats just moronic on a spun bearing. And supra's are more pricey then subarus so i do not see what's your point.
I have REAL world experience with tuning and modifying to know that you do not need to replace all that with a spun bearing. I do spun bearigns on other cars too, just more prominently on supra's.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:31 PM   #17
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Since when are Supras and Subarus comparable? When you can give a good apples to apples comparison let us know. Having worked in a Subaru shop for 5 years, I can also attest to 9k being a pretty accurate number once you throw in parts and labor. I've seen several spun bearings, my own car included. And yes, it's possible for the piston to hit the head. But what would we know, we've only seen it firsthand several times As for buying a new head and block, that's what Subaru does in warranty cases, they recommend replacement rather than repair. If it's not warranty, then he can do whatever he wants.


I just looked up the basic set of parts for this (shortblock, heads, cams, gasket set, etc) and it came out to just under 5k in parts alone. I don't know what the shop rates are in AK but here it's about 115/hr here and it'd be between 30-40 hours to build the motor through Subaru.

Last edited by BlackfeetVI; 03-22-2007 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackfeetVI View Post
Since when are Supras and Subarus comparable? When you can give a good apples to apples comparison let us know. Having worked in a Subaru shop for 5 years, I can also attest to 9k being a pretty accurate number once you throw in parts and labor. I've seen several spun bearings, my own car included. And yes, it's possible for the piston to hit the head. But what would we know, we've only seen it firsthand several times


I just looked up the basic set of parts for this (shortblock, heads, cams, gasket set, etc) and it came out to just under 5k in parts alone. I don't know what the shop rates are in AK but here it's about 115/hr here and it'd be between 30-40 hours to build the motor through Subaru.
Thanks for the backup

5k approx in parts sounds about right. And we're at $95 an hour here in AK with that job quoted to be about 26 hours which = $2470 in labor. If your turbo is shot as well due to lack of oil, add about another $1000 in parts. Now we're at about $8400 approx.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:26 PM   #19
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Well, either way, I DID NOT lose any oil before the engine went. If I could show you the filter and gasket, you could see what I'm talking about, but I am looking for advice mostly based on what the dealership is most likely to believe. In my research, spun beraings (if that's what it is) seem to be a relatively common problem. I have a stock car which had good oil, and it spun a bearing. Yes, I was driving it hard, but I was not doing anything that would or should woid the warranty. The car has a rev limiter, so it can NOT spin over 7k rpm. I did not miss a shift, EVER. Please do not speculate as to my credibility- I am not looking for a scolding. In my opinion, Subaru designed an engine which is known to have bearing failures, for whatever reason. They are responsible for the bearing, as I purchased the vehicle with a 5 year powertrain warranty and have not voided it in any way. The advice I'm looking for concerns the plausibilty of an oil filter spinning loose, another possible cause, or another explanation, for my own knowledge. Then there is the question of how to present my case. As I mentioned, the car had good oil. The oil leak occurred only after driving the car a few miles with a badly damaged engine, while getting it on a trailer - there was no oil leakage beforehand. Whether it was related to metal in the oil, vibration, or whatever, I am 100% sure there was no leakage before the mishap.

Some answers:
Yes, of course the engine/oil is full of metal.
A 2.5 shortblock (for a hybrid setup) is less than $2k NEW - I would venture a guess that very few enthusiasts would consider paying a dealer $4-$9k for an engine ( I could get a full STi drivetrain for less than $9 thousand dollars!!!) For $9k, I could probably quarry the iron to make the steel...
Either way, I'm not willing to pay the dealer anything. Thanks for the figures, but let's be real.

Thank you kindly for the advice as I've spent many hours on this forum and appreciate all of the expertise most of you share.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:15 AM   #20
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If you want this covered under warranty, then you don't really get to choose what goes in. A 2.0l turbo motor is coming out of the car, a 2.0l is going back in as far as Subaru is concerned. If you decide to cover the difference to do it, your only warranty on the new shortblock, etc. will be the 12 month, 12k mile parts warranty. In the thousands of Subarus I've seen go through our shop, I have NEVER seen an oil filter spin loose because of engine damage/knocking/etc. How can you be positive that you weren't losing oil beforehand (I'm not questioning your credibility, I'm asking why you are positive you weren't) and why are you certain it's a spun bearing? Have you checked the block? I wonder if a rod might've gone through the block, that might explain the dumping of oil. Was this a Subaru oil filter? Spun bearings are not a common problem to Subarus, very rarely do we see them come through in the shops (I talk with techs at 3 other shops on a very regular basis and it's one that gets brought up if we see it.) And your comment "Subaru designed an engine that is known to have bearing failures" is (in my opinion) bull****. Stuff happens to every motor in every make of car. There is no such thing as a perfect motor. Subaru motors are not known for bearing failures, if anything they're known for head gaskets. For every bearing failure I've seen, I could show you 1000 cars that haven't spun one.

As far as presenting your case, honesty is going to take you farther in this than trying to cover it up. Catastrophic motor meltdowns are rare indeed, and if you give them a reason to look at the car with a microscope then they will.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:19 AM   #21
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"I have previously had up/down pipe and BOV on the car but they came off 10k miles ago.
Any ideas????
Please no scolding - I am an adult and the information is accurate"

"as I purchased the vehicle with a 5 year powertrain warranty and have not voided it in any way"

Sorry, scolding coming. Which one of these statements is untrue?
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:34 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sub.driver View Post
Help - advice?? I think I spun a bearing, which then resulted in an oil leak! The car spun the bearing with relatively new Mobil1 at full volume, then it leaked oil (not vise versa) It sounds far fetched, but please read...
I was driving my 2004 2.0L turbo WRX (revving it rather high) when I noticed a noise from the engine. After getting out of the car, the noise was more apparrent and I drove it for a bit and then shut it down. All in all, the car probably ran for ten minutes with the engine noise (spun bearing?).
After arranging a tow, I had to move the vehicle about 100 yards, and in doing so, the noise got worse and the car dropped a couple quarts of oil, CEL, oil light, etc. (all within 20 seconds) so I immediately shut it off.
Here's the problem. I need to get it in for powertrain warranty coverage, but I realize the first thing they would check is for the oil leak, so I inspected everything and found that the oil filter had basically spun loose enough for a bulge in the gasket and a leak. I had changed the oil about 600 miles ago and didn't spill a drop until the problem occurred. My assumption is that the excessive vibration from the 'knock' loosened the oil filter enough for this to happen. I am experienced enough to double check and not make a mistake with oil filters, gaskets, etc., but I am concerned that the dealership won't believe me and deny coverage. I am absolutely sure that I did not lose oil prior to the engine failure, but I don't know whether I can be honest with the dealer. The car is now probably 2-3 quarts low with the oil filter retightened and the oil has metal in it.
I have no modifications other than a rear sway bar and stock size all season tires. I have previously had up/down pipe and BOV on the car but they came off 10k miles ago.
Any ideas????
Please no scolding - I am an adult and the information is accurate
How did I miss that? What were you running for EM with a downpipe and uppipe? Either way, your warranty coverage with a downpipe and uppipe (doesn't matter whether it's on the car now or not) is going to be very dicey indeed, especially since if you reflashed your ECU at one point, it's voided and if you didn't reflash it you were running an 04 (Hellloooo open/closed loop fueling issues) with exhaust and that's a good combination to blow a motor anyway as it'll lean out and burn things up. It doesn't matter if they came off 10k miles ago, how long were they on? How many miles are on the car total? What downpipe/uppipe and was this a full TBE?

Either way, it's starting to sound more and more like that warranty you keep talking about may not apply to you anymore.

Last edited by BlackfeetVI; 03-22-2007 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 03-22-2007, 09:23 AM   #23
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Either way, it's starting to sound more and more like that warranty you keep talking about may not apply to you anymore.
Exactly.

I wish that every person that spun a bearing would do a used oil analysis.
OP - I'm going to take a guess that you were using 5W30 or 10W30. Am I right?

-Dennis
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Old 03-22-2007, 10:47 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Thanks for the backup

5k approx in parts sounds about right. And we're at $95 an hour here in AK with that job quoted to be about 26 hours which = $2470 in labor. If your turbo is shot as well due to lack of oil, add about another $1000 in parts. Now we're at about $8400 approx.
dont forget tax and SHOP SUPPLIES.

wow you guys only charge $95 / hour... nice.

i love it when people like to chime in because they have worked on another car and they think it should be all relative. like when people come to my drive a day after they bought their new WRX or STI and say its idling funny. i ask them "did u have a HONDA before this?"
i wonder if he would go to a porsche dealership and ask why they charge 11k for a tranny when you can get a ford tranny for $1500.
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Old 03-22-2007, 11:37 AM   #25
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I included tax Didn't think about shop supplies, though...our Service Dept handles that, I'm in Parts
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