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Old 01-23-2015, 03:13 PM   #1
monkeyposeur
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Default 22T/205 Hybrid Unsure of HGs to use

I am about to assemble my EJ22T shortblock. I picked it up from the machine shop yesterday where it was decked and bored & honed to accept .020 OTS Wisecos. I will be running the stock phase 1 crank which is in excellent condition and was micropolished and cleaned. Rods will be a set of 257 STi rods.

I was going to swap this block into my 95 L wagon using stock 22T heads for a fun DD. My original plan was to build a 22T/205 hybrid and merge the L harness with an 02 WRX harness that I found and run it with an 02 WRX ecu but I decided on using stock 22T heads to keep things simple for the swap. But I came across an 03 WRX in great shape for pretty cheap that has cracked cylinder heads, was running great, but flashing the CEL for a cylinder 2 misfire. Clean body, all stock except for a SPT catback exhaust and SPT strut tower. 205 block has approx 120k, no spun bearings, etc. I'll probably purchase the WRX on Monday.

Since the 205 block has high miles I want to use my freshened up 22T with a set of immaculate 205 heads that I picked up a couple years ago with shimless buckets. I will most likely soften the edges of the chambers to match the 22T bore although it might not be completely necessary since I will keep the WRX at near stock HP. And get a proper tune, of course.

The Wisecos will put my compression at 8.5:1 and I am aware that the pistons will protrude above the deck a bit.

Any recommendations for head gaskets to run this setup? 22E hgs? Or a custom Cometic? I must admit I have little to no knowledge when it comes to proper head gasket thicknesses or what type to use. I assume using OEM 205 hgs are out of the question.

Any advice is appreciated.

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Last edited by monkeyposeur; 01-23-2015 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 01-23-2015, 03:39 PM   #2
maciek
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I ran the stock 22t HG on my 22t/205 hybrid. I did have a stroker setup and custom CP pistons.

It would be important to figure out how much above deck the pistons will protrude, for quench height analysis (distance from piston top to head surface at TDC)

Stock ej22t HG is 0.063" - 0.065" thick

If your piston comes out above deck by 0.020", then it leaves 0.043-0.045" quench height.

I think a good quench height range is 0.030" - 0.050" (maybe someone can chime in to verify/revise this range)

The weisco 8.5:1 calculation is with what heads and what HG? ej25D (46.6cc) heads and stock ej22tHG?

The ej205 heads have 49cc combustion chambers.
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:10 PM   #3
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You need this updated ej22 head gasket 1044AA610 it's .055" thick and dohc. With your 205 heads and wiseco pistons with a .055" thick hg your static cr will be around 8.35 and a quench of .043".
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciek View Post

The weisco 8.5:1 calculation is with what heads and what HG? ej25D (46.6cc) heads and stock ej22tHG?

The ej205 heads have 49cc combustion chambers.
The 8.5:1 calculation is just what I have picked up over on bbs, so it shows my ignorance on the subject. Maybe that number is for stock 22T heads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
You need this updated ej22 head gasket 1044AA610 it's .055" thick and dohc. With your 205 heads and wiseco pistons with a .055" thick hg your static cr will be around 8.35 and a quench of .043".
Thanks fastblueufo!!! I'll go ahead and order one.

I will use the stock 22T oil pump and I will keep the oil squirters. I have heard conflicting information on the torque specs for the squirters. I have heard everything from 1 ft lb w/red locktite to not using any locktite to avoid clogging the jets and torquing them down to 12-15 ft lbs. They were scary loose when I removed them. Anyone have some solid advice for this question?

Also, will the stock tune on the wrx ecu be ok with the 22T block to start the engine after I button it up to ensure there are no leaks or problems before a proper tune? If anyone knows a tuner that would provide an initial etune for this setup I'm all ears.

Should I follow the Subaru 22T FSM for setting ring gaps? This is my first motor assembly. I might pay a professional to set the ring gaps since that is the step that I requires the most experience.
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Old 01-23-2015, 06:12 PM   #5
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To tighten oil squirter just turn until the thread bottoms out, then turn about 30*-40*. Use small amount of red locktight.

The engine should crank on stock tune and run good enough to drive and log if using mass air flow and not speed density.

Follow wise instruction for ring gaps. Wiseco uses cut to fit rings so you may not be able to set gaps. Shoot for
Top .015"
Second .021"
Oil .008"
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Old 01-23-2015, 11:20 PM   #6
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Awesome! Thanks again! I bought the WRX and will get it towed to my house on Monday. Then take my nice heads to get checked out at the machine shop and probably just use them as they are. I purchased them from a guy who was running them on a 257 with a good tune making good power and no issues.

Ordering a Gates timing kit, OEM standard bearings or ACL Duraglides, and the 22e HGs. I'm considering using the 22T oil pump that was on the block but might just get a new 22T pump for peace of mind. And should order some FU cam gear Turning Concepts bolts. Super psyched for this build!
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Old 01-24-2015, 03:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
Awesome! Thanks again! I bought the WRX and will get it towed to my house on Monday. Then take my nice heads to get checked out at the machine shop and probably just use them as they are. I purchased them from a guy who was running them on a 257 with a good tune making good power and no issues.

Ordering a Gates timing kit, OEM standard bearings or ACL Duraglides, and the 22e HGs. I'm considering using the 22T oil pump that was on the block but might just get a new 22T pump for peace of mind. And should order some FU cam gear Turning Concepts bolts. Super psyched for this build!
If you haven't taken the oil pump apart, I would do that and clean everything up and inspect the rotor and plate to see if there is any wear. One of these oil pumps can be run for a long time without issues as long as a spun bearing doesn't happen. Make sure to take the bypass plunger out and do some light smoothing of any edges along with inside the hole where the plunger goes. In reality that pump should be good to go though.
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Old 01-24-2015, 10:30 PM   #8
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Cool! Should be fun to take it apart and see how it works. Which part in the diagram is the bypass valve?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
You need this updated ej22 head gasket 1044AA610 it's .055" thick and dohc. With your 205 heads and wiseco pistons with a .055" thick hg your static cr will be around 8.35 and a quench of .043".
Any links to where I can purchase this head gasket? My searches using the part no. aren't coming up with anything.
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Old 01-25-2015, 11:42 AM   #9
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You go to the dealer or online Subaru parts for that HG.

you need to know what you have. So what pistons do you have? What's your head cc?

The 22t replacement pistons are advertised running a 46.6cc cylinder head; 97-99 ej25d head. This is running with the thick oem HG and is advertised with a 8.6:1cr. You run a stock 22t head and cr will jump up into the low 9s. You run a S20 WRX head and it'll drop to low 8s.

You can run custom cometic HG. Make sure your surfaces are mirror smooth.

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Old 01-27-2015, 12:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
Cool! Should be fun to take it apart and see how it works. Which part in the diagram is the bypass valve?


Any links to where I can purchase this head gasket? My searches using the part no. aren't coming up with anything.
The plunger is the # 15, 16,13 and 17. that # 1 there is the little washer/spacer that most of these pumps come with. A few do not have one which is fine. Some need one from the factory to match the intended psi bypass spec.
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Old 01-27-2015, 10:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
you need to know what you have. So what pistons do you have? What's your head cc?

You can run custom cometic HG. Make sure your surfaces are mirror smooth.
The pistons appear to be Wiseco .020 97.5 OTS EJ22 K602M975 pistons.





This as smooth as the machine shop can get when I asked.


Heads are stock 205 heads so 49cc. I might have them chamber matched so that number might increase. I talked to a machinist who does this type of thing and he would use a cnc machine to cut a step and the machine shop next door would use hand tools to smooth out the rest and I could have them make sure the cc of each chamber is the same. If I had a grinder and bits I could do it (I was a violin maker for ten years) but I don't mind paying a pro to do it.



Here is the wrx picked up for a good deal.



The seller had a cel so she took it in to the shop where they diagnosed cracked heads and she decided it wasn't worth the $2500 the shop quoted to replace the heads so she sold it to me. I found a burnt valve with a clean shortblock and turbo. I'm tempted to replace the valve and put back the stock motor and see how it runs, lol.

Can I use OEM 22T rod bearings or should I use 257 STi rod bearings? Since the rods are interchangeable I would think the 22T bearings would work just fine.

Last edited by monkeyposeur; 01-27-2015 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:46 AM   #12
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The 22t and 257 bearings are the same for rods, different for the mains (#3 vs #5 thrust position).
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:56 AM   #13
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FYI those Wiseco pistons are stroker style for a 79mm crank. Are you stroking or keeping it 75mm stroke like a stock 22t.
I don't think those will work for the stock 22t stroke.

The pistons are designed at 8.5:1 CR with 46.6 cc chambers and a 0.054" thick HG.
The HG thickness is spot on to your choice, but the larger combustion chambers will eat away at the 8.5:1 CR.
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Old 01-28-2015, 02:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciek View Post
FYI those Wiseco pistons are stroker style for a 79mm crank. Are you stroking or keeping it 75mm stroke like a stock 22t.
I don't think those will work for the stock 22t stroke.

The pistons are designed at 8.5:1 CR with 46.6 cc chambers and a 0.054" thick HG.
The HG thickness is spot on to your choice, but the larger combustion chambers will eat away at the 8.5:1 CR.
Those don't look like stroker pistons. Look how much compression height those pistons have. Going from a 46.6cc chamber to the larger 48 cc chamber on the 205 head only drops his static from 8.5 to 8.36.

The compression height on 75mm stroke pistons is just under 1.5" and the compression height on the stroker is just over 1".

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Old 01-28-2015, 06:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Those don't look like stroker pistons.
I just identified them by the model number the OP provided (K602M975) and crosschecked with the Weisco product PDF.

Quote:
Going from a 46.6cc chamber to the larger 48 cc chamber on the 205 head only drops his static from 8.5 to 8.36.
As far as the CR drop, I agree, it should not be more then 0.3 CR drop, even with slightly enlarged combustion chambers (say 50cc) after CnC machining.
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Old 01-29-2015, 12:10 AM   #16
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I don't think they are stroker pistons. Sorry if I provided the wrong part number, if so that's my mistake. I purchased them from a local guy who was ran them for about 800 miles on 257 rods.

I met the machinist who is going to chamber match the heads today. He went to 9 years of school for mechanical engineering and worked for NASA and did some work for COBB when they used to be located in Utah. He showed me his working scale model that he built from scratch of a three story steam engine that pumped London's water supply around the turn of the century, as well as a small bulldozer and front loader with a two speed automatic transmission. The tiny torque convertor was amazing!!! I could go on and on...

I'm having the 205 heads cleaned, magnafluxed, cncd chamber matched, new valve seals, three angle valve job, decked if they need it, and whatever else they need. So the heads should be good to go.

I don't know the final cc of the heads. As soon as I know I'll update. I'm ordering the 22e gasket that was suggested. There are some local tuners so maybe I should start asking around. And I'll get the stock injectors cleand and flow tested.
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Old 01-29-2015, 04:01 PM   #17
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Because of the compression height of the 22t I don't recommend OTS pistons from wiseco at all. Any piston company can make you custom ones with the correct compression height and to your desired compression ratio. Wiseco ots pistons have soft rings that seat quickly, but wear faster so your ring gap will grow faster. I'm not sure if they offer harder rings but I'd get harder rings if you want longer life without having to rebuild.

I've had good luck with the 22e hg on stock pistons. They are tighter fit and aren't off set wrist pins if I'm correct. The wiseco pistons being forged will require more piston to wall clearance and being offset wrist pins, you may get piston to head contact if you run the stock 22e hg.

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Old 01-29-2015, 04:55 PM   #18
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Well **** that's not good to hear. Now you have me worried. I already had the block bored for the .020 97.5 Wisecos. I guess it's not too late for me to use something else? Is there any way to know for sure if I will get piston to head contact?

If I contact a piston company about custom pistons what would I ask them to make exactly? I just looked at the JE custom piston order form. Obviously I don't know what I am doing here, lol.

If I ordered custom pistons then could I get away with not chamber matching the 205 heads to the 22T bore? I've read on here that that's what some guys do when they do 205/257 builds.
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Old 01-29-2015, 08:04 PM   #19
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You give the machine shop piston to size your piston to wall clearance?

If you partially assemble your engine with the crank/rod/bearings/piston in, you'll see how far the piston comes out the deck. You can have the top of the piston shaved. The amount shaved isn't a lot to effect the distance from the top of the piston to the top ring.

You can run with unmodded chambers. If anything round off the chambers sides. The 205/257 hybrids even just flaring the sides help drop compression ratio closer to mid 8s than high 8s. I flare them, and then we drop in JE hybrid pistons.

a machine shop would have to submit the paper work for the pistons. Getting pistons made usually takes like around 5 weeks.

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Old 01-29-2015, 10:30 PM   #20
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I'm not in a hurry to get this build done so a five week turnaround isn't an issue. I'd rather spend a bit more money and do it right the first time so if I have to ditch the Wisecos so be it. Thanks for potentially saving me from destroying my build upon startup.

I provided the pistons to the machinist when I asked him to bore the block and he said that he bored them two thousandths over. I can take the block halves back and have him give me the actual bore size if needed.

At this point the heads are disassembled so if it is best to get them chamber matched I'll do it. If custom pistons are the way to go I'll do that. If I need to chamber match and get custom pistons I'll do it. I asked my machine shop if they would do a hand job and flare the sides and that is when they directed me to the dude next door who does all the fancy cnc work. The owner seemed reluctant to agree to do any work to the combustion chambers by hand. He's been doing this stuff for 40 years but maybe that type of work is outside of his scope of experience.

As far as shaving the pistons is concerned, is that a less desirable option than getting custom pistons?

I called JE to talk to their guys but their experts had gone home so I will call them tomorrow morning. If you have any advice as to what I should ask them I'm all ears.

I need some more guidance with hard and fast instructions, lol. Thanks to everyone for all their help.
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Old 01-29-2015, 11:03 PM   #21
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They should be able to get you pistons. You just need to give them the right numbers. Since you're not running a 79mm crank, you give them a WRX EJ205 compression height. This will keep those pistons from coming out. If you wanted you could even go lower like the JDM EJ207. It's ideal to bring the machine shop the piston so they can bore /hone to the desired piston to wall clearance. They measure the piston diameter then the bore size.

As far as chamber modifications, if the head guy has that much experience, doing work by hand shouldn't be an issue. This is some of what I've done.

Flared 2L heads with full D-shaped intake ports/ported exhaust/radius valve job. 51cc


Chamber matched to an STi 57cc


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Old 01-30-2015, 06:50 AM   #22
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I've done this exact build before. If you read my earlier post I gave you exact compression and quench with the wiseco ots 2.2 75mm stroke pistons and what thickness hg to use. You can get aftermarket rings for those pistons if desired. I've not had any issue with the rings wiseco uses. With a .042" quench your not close enough to hitting piston to a valve. Those pistons will go above the deck by .012" on uncut deck.
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Old 01-30-2015, 04:48 PM   #23
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Yes I did read your post so thanks for that. I really appreciate. It's just Fuji had me worried because of the conflicting opinion and the warning about the wiseco rings. I also didn't realize that you actually had done this same setup so that makes me feel a lot better. And the fact I don't have to shell out $600 for another set of pistons is a relief.

I'm headed down to the dealer to get the hg you recommended and drop it off with the machinist so he can go ahead with the chamber matching and new valves, etc.
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
Yes I did read your post so thanks for that. I really appreciate. It's just Fuji had me worried because of the conflicting opinion and the warning about the wiseco rings. I also didn't realize that you actually had done this same setup so that makes me feel a lot better. And the fact I don't have to shell out $600 for another set of pistons is a relief.

I'm headed down to the dealer to get the hg you recommended and drop it off with the machinist so he can go ahead with the chamber matching and new valves, etc.
Measure the compression height of the Pistons you have. It should be 1.4". Just to make sure they are the correct ones.
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:57 PM   #25
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Another guy at the machine shop has done a lot of chamber matching 2.5 blocks to 2.0 blocks so he going to take care of the hand work after the cnc work. This is the first time he's done a 2.2 however. I happened to have an ej22t head in the car so I gave that to him for reference and he is going to match those chambers. He was psyched to have one to look at and he will make sure each chamber is the same cc.
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