Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday October 25, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-23-2007, 11:00 PM   #51
Black-STi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 111165
Join Date: Mar 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Pacific Northwest
Vehicle:
2008 Legacy (Sedan)
2005 S2000 (Supercharged)

Default

Only problem is that the design requires extensive modification and time to make it all work...I was looking for something more "bolt on" that doesnt require modding of any other parts (and thats what I got)
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Black-STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2007, 11:18 PM   #52
wgknestrick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32576
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Allentown, PA
Vehicle:
04 STI
Roller Barrel ITBS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-STi View Post
Only problem is that the design requires extensive modification and time to make it all work...I was looking for something more "bolt on" that doesnt require modding of any other parts (and thats what I got)
You cannot have anything good without putting the time and effort into it. Keep your car stock or shell out $1200 for Magnus's manifold. It's the best you are going to get, and you won't be able to build one like it for much under $700 doing it yourself. Flanges and tubing are pretty expensive now.

$30 x 4 for bends
$30 x 4 for velocity stacks
$300 TIG welding
$200 for flanges.

This stuff adds up really quick and you might as well buy it from them as it works as soon at it gets to your door.
wgknestrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 08:38 AM   #53
SKC
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15250
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Dentsport is a top notch shop in every aspect and incredible fabricators too. That manifold pictured above, however, I am not crazy about the design at all. They have done incredible designs on other projects, but this is not one of them (IMO). They also have a new Subaru design IIRC out.

One area that I did not design very well is my plenum "ceiling" face. A flat "ceiling" face (face opposite runner port entries) reflects the sound waves better back down the runners and thus has a greater tunned effect.
Bill,

Could not agree more with your comments on the Dentsport manifold. It just makes no sense??

By flat ceiling face on the plenum, do you mean something like this; :-)





Cheers,

Stephen

Last edited by SKC; 04-24-2007 at 08:44 AM.
SKC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 09:58 AM   #54
tonzo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 94903
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
1996 Impreza Wagon!
Satin Black

Subaru Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
$30 x 4 for bends
$30 x 4 for velocity stacks
$300 TIG welding
$200 for flanges.

This stuff adds up really quick and you might as well buy it from them as it works as soon at it gets to your door.
if you really do it yourself you can use tubing, sheet metal, some labor and then it will cost a looooot less than 700
tonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 01:08 PM   #55
wgknestrick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32576
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Allentown, PA
Vehicle:
04 STI
Roller Barrel ITBS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonzo View Post
if you really do it yourself you can use tubing, sheet metal, some labor and then it will cost a looooot less than 700
Trust me, the stuff adds up very quickly. I have the finished manifolds to prove it and I even got a lot of freebees. That estimate is pretty accurate for someone doing it themselves with average garage tools, and help from outside on welding/machining. Most people cannot just make good flanges out stock plate on their own. Machinist really helps here.
wgknestrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 05:38 PM   #56
wgknestrick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32576
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Allentown, PA
Vehicle:
04 STI
Roller Barrel ITBS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKC View Post
Bill,

Could not agree more with your comments on the Dentsport manifold. It just makes no sense??

By flat ceiling face on the plenum, do you mean something like this; :-)





Cheers,

Stephen
You get this thing running yet or are you still fighting 100s of small problems like me? I'd love to see some video of it idling and thru the gears.

Bill
wgknestrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 07:20 PM   #57
SKC
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15250
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
You get this thing running yet or are you still fighting 100s of small problems like me? I'd love to see some video of it idling and thru the gears.

Bill
I had to wait for months to get the custom mirrored throttle bodies made (not in pics) as the machinist buggerised around. Throttle cables, vacuum block, remote oil res etc etc were all finished yesterday actually. It is back to the shop to get the real motor fitted, along with a new harness and the balance of the fuel system before it is fired up. Happy to share some video when the time comes.

Cheers,

Stephen
SKC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 08:40 PM   #58
tonzo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 94903
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
1996 Impreza Wagon!
Satin Black

Subaru Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Trust me, the stuff adds up very quickly. I have the finished manifolds to prove it and I even got a lot of freebees. That estimate is pretty accurate for someone doing it themselves with average garage tools, and help from outside on welding/machining. Most people cannot just make good flanges out stock plate on their own. Machinist really helps here.

I said "if you really do it yourself", meaning you weld it yourself and make everything from scratch. its a lot cheaper than you'd think. of course you do need some tools that the common person does not have, but thats usually common of the DIYer. If you get any help that requires paying someone labor costs then of course its going to cost you more.
tonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 08:47 PM   #59
MY99 2.5GT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5030
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Martinsburg, WV, USA
Vehicle:
1999 Legacy 2.5GT
05 Legacy GT 06 Armada

Default

That V-mount Dentsport WRX looks butchered.
MY99 2.5GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 08:51 PM   #60
MY99 2.5GT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5030
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Martinsburg, WV, USA
Vehicle:
1999 Legacy 2.5GT
05 Legacy GT 06 Armada

Default

I really like the looks of that center split intercooler and the velocity stack on the end of the runner.

Nice job welding that aluminum. The Densport looks more like a solder or "allumaloy" job.

I see the outlet of the coolent crossover pipe but where is the radiator?

brad
MY99 2.5GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 09:10 PM   #61
SKC
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15250
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MY99 2.5GT View Post
I see the outlet of the coolent crossover pipe but where is the radiator?
brad
This might give you a better idea of the radiator setup. Plenums are made from 4mm aluminium plate, pipe and donuts, welded inside and out. Welds are then finished back and then re-welded inside and out before finishing back to final surface.








Last edited by SKC; 04-25-2007 at 01:58 AM.
SKC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 10:07 PM   #62
wgknestrick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32576
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Allentown, PA
Vehicle:
04 STI
Roller Barrel ITBS

Default

This was the other Dentsport manifold that I was talking about. I think it is much better than their first attempt, but the runners are really/really short. Everything I have read states that it is much better to have runners that are too long rather than too short. This is because with the longer runners, you will at least cross thru the tuned RPMs of the manifold, where the short runners you never reach that RPM with the engine.

I am sure there is a point where the straight, short runners just start to out flow/perform the "tuned" design just based on shear volume efficiency. The short runners will have many high order resonances that you will cross thru, but the pressure waves will be much smaller (think of a decaying echo). Referencing other manifolds for different makes, not too many companies make manifolds with runners this short. They are mostly around the 5"-10" runner length (head to runner port). Only manifolds I've seen like this are on Porsche's (aftermarket) and I think it is mostly for packaging reasons, not performance.


Last edited by wgknestrick; 04-24-2007 at 10:13 PM.
wgknestrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 10:13 PM   #63
SOOBE
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 78977
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Down Under
Default

stop whoring pics and get that thing running Stephen!!!
SOOBE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 10:47 PM   #64
Patrick Olsen
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 120
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Where the Navy sends me...
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

Default

From some of the posts I've read elsewhere I think even the Dentsport guys will admit it might not be the optimum design. They're experimenting and will find out how it works when it hits the dyno. At least, that's impression I've gotten reading about their time trial car build.

Pat
Patrick Olsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 11:22 PM   #65
srREXed
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72234
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: S. FL... Now Fort Polk, LA
Vehicle:
2004 WRX SRR
EJ257-35R-6MT

Default

The radiator setup seems pointlessly large and in my opinion should not be at the frontmost part of the bumper like that... Can you say road debris? That thing will be don within the 1st 10k miles... just my 2cents
srREXed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 01:37 AM   #66
SKC
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15250
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srREXed View Post
The radiator setup seems pointlessly large and in my opinion should not be at the frontmost part of the bumper like that... Can you say road debris? That thing will be don within the 1st 10k miles... just my 2cents
Try and do 20 laps of a race track in a 600hp GC8 with a FMIC and radiator in the std location and get back to me.........

Before that location and configuration was chosen we measured the velocity pressure profile of the car at speed. I originally was hoping to mount the radiator in the boot and duct air up through where the back seat nomally sits with a discharge out the boot, but for a number of reasons testing showed it was never going to work. Is it subject to damage more than the stock location, sure, but the car is not a daily driver.

The radiator is only 19mm thick with a particular fin pitch (for a few reasons) and accordingly combined with the intended use which includes circuit racing needs to be that size. That what you "think" and what we calculated is required are different, does not suprise me.

Cheers,

SK

PS: How long was yours off the road Jacob? :-)

Last edited by SKC; 04-25-2007 at 06:47 AM.
SKC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 01:41 AM   #67
sku81
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 143283
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: QLD Australia
Vehicle:
2001 bugeye wrx
white

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOOBE View Post
stop whoring pics and get that thing running Stephen!!!
x2,to much bling aswell.But shouldn't be to far away?

Kris
sku81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 01:44 AM   #68
SKC
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15250
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Australia
Default

[quote=wgknestrick;17843196]This was the other Dentsport manifold that I was talking about. QUOTE]

I still don't get it. In addition to your h/r points wrt tract length, why use a dual plenum design with a single throttle body? It seems to me to be taking to worst features of most twin plenum designs and concatenating them with the worst features of most large single plenum designs????
SKC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 01:47 AM   #69
SKC
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15250
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sku81 View Post
x2,to much bling aswell.But shouldn't be to far away?
Bling is under the bonnet out of sight.

SKC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 12:00 PM   #70
srREXed
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72234
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: S. FL... Now Fort Polk, LA
Vehicle:
2004 WRX SRR
EJ257-35R-6MT

Default

Seemingly SKC got her panties in a bunch when someone states an opinion. I dont do your roundy round auto x anyway, so you dont have to worry about gettin run over with my 500 hp 2.0L. FYI - the better design would have put it in the trunk where you dont have to worry about destroying your oversized radiator. Take a look at the drift subarus and you tell me they dont spend their time at redline taking a beating and a half... Im saying nothing but enjoy your radiators short life. After it gets cracked wide open youll have to fab another, and it will probably go in the trunk...
srREXed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 01:03 PM   #71
wgknestrick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32576
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Allentown, PA
Vehicle:
04 STI
Roller Barrel ITBS

Default

Thanks for coming and adding nothing more than typical NASIOC attitude to what was a semi technical discussion.

You are the one that remarked the radiator was pointlessly large and started this whole debate for no reason. This thread is about INTAKE MANIFOLDS, not radiators. This is why nobody can find information on Nasioc anymore. Threads start on topic, then 2 pages later Efight breaks out.

Please stay on subject.

PS. I do not think you are qualified to critique SKC's setup in any way until you do at least 1/4 of the work he put into that car. Back to intake manifolds
wgknestrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 07:11 PM   #72
SKC
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15250
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srREXed View Post
Seemingly SKC got her panties in a bunch when someone states an opinion.
Not at all. I welcome the informed opinions of others. I stated the boot was my 1st choice, but real testing and measurement of the velocity pressure profile showed on a gc8 the only way to get air to the boot was through a large duct in the roof or from massive ducts in the rear doors. For the classes I am interested in competing in, that is not tenable. The drift guys generally draw from the doors. Whilst that works for them, their use is completely different from mine. Firstly the cars only do one or two laps at a time (not 20) and for them, a front mounted radiator is not often perpendicular to the direction of travel.

Anyway, if you want to discuss further, PM me, otherwise.... back to intakes.

Stephen

Last edited by SKC; 04-26-2007 at 12:09 AM.
SKC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 08:26 PM   #73
SOOBE
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 78977
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Down Under
Default

better watch out for srREXed's 500hp 2L Stephen! lol
SOOBE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 08:55 PM   #74
SOOBE
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 78977
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Down Under
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post


This is the best manifold design I have seen by far on a Suby (cosiecovert) and the results prove this. This guy really knows what he is doing (car runs 9s).

Things that are great about this:

1. Runner length He looks to be running around 12" or so, but revs high enough to justify it (I don't)
2. High injector location. This really helps increase HP in high RPM because it gives fuel more time to atomize in the high velocity air. F1 cars have injectors outside of the intake ports FYI (kind of a fire hazard though)
3. Big plenum volume
does anyone have dyno sheets for this car?
SOOBE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2007, 09:55 PM   #75
wgknestrick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32576
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Allentown, PA
Vehicle:
04 STI
Roller Barrel ITBS

Default

wgknestrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB: Polished or Aftermarket intake manifold midnightsti Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 4 06-13-2006 06:39 PM
Aftermarket intake manifold west005 Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 18 05-30-2006 09:03 PM
Aftermarket Intake Manifolds WRXRallyBlue Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 25 10-03-2005 08:11 PM
New/Aftermarket Intake manifold Twelvz Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 29 03-11-2005 12:32 PM
New Aftermarket Intake Manifold DonkeyPunch Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 14 01-15-2005 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.