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Old 04-08-2007, 04:27 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Wrong on all accounts sadly.
Well, they were pretty busy for MY2008, with the Impreza launch, and Tribeca and Legacy refreshings.

So, maybe for MY2009. The Legacy will be due for a new version probably for MY2010 anyway.
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:12 PM   #52
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Cool cobb tuning has a twin turbo of this going already

i forget exactly where i saw this, but cobb tuning is building an ez. they already hit the 1000hp mark. i thought someone would have posted this info by now. they are working on developing a twin turb for it. ill see if i cant find it between being overwhelmed with work and being overwhelemed with work.

Last edited by quixoticpleiades; 04-12-2007 at 05:13 PM. Reason: mispelling, extra info
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:36 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
I have no interest in seeing one turboed. The current EZ30R doesnt like being turboed, and this one is even more sensitive with a longer stroke and thinner cylinder walls. Its not a good engine for turboing.
It's not?

I ran my Turbocharged EZ30R WRX at Subiefest, and it seemed to be working pretty good.

Cheers,

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Old 04-12-2007, 05:42 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
one more not to this is the incredibly thin cylinder walls wouldn't do too well with boost either
there also really isn't much room for sleeving of any kind on the EZ30 much less the "EZ32" bore...
Really?



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Old 04-12-2007, 06:23 PM   #55
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^^^^^^^^^^quit ruining everyones thunder with facts. Next thing you know the thread will be moved to OT.
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Old 04-12-2007, 08:35 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
It's not?

I ran my Turbocharged EZ30R WRX at Subiefest, and it seemed to be working pretty good.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
Thats cool. But Perrin, unless thats you, I cant tell anymore, has gone through a couple motors IIRC...

I'm just not interested in turboing everything like most people are. I'd rather see the full potential of the EZ's in N/A form.
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Old 04-12-2007, 08:49 PM   #57
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^ And I'm willing to drop my car off at PDXTuning to have them find the full potential of the EZ in N/A form.

My wallet just has reservations about the idea.
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Old 04-12-2007, 08:49 PM   #58
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That's the perrin motor.
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:35 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Thats cool. But Perrin, unless thats you, I cant tell anymore, has gone through a couple motors IIRC...

I'm just not interested in turboing everything like most people are. I'd rather see the full potential of the EZ's in N/A form.

The pictures of the sleeved is from Perrin's H6. We both have turbo H6's in our cars. Mine is not sleeved, but has the same Pauter rods, Supertec pistons (8:1 CR), and Supertec valve springs. I also put in some custom supertec exhaust valves (which weren't available when JeffP built his.

I was just giving you a hard time about saying it is hard to turbo in jest. It of course is somewhat challenging. Perrin had a failure related to the crank bearing, and I had a failure with a stock rod (before switching to the Pauter rods). The rod failure was something I expected at the power level, as those stock rods are even smaller then the WRX ones.

We are still activly working to figure out the real limits. I did race my car this last weekend, and it is holding up pretty well. I'll be keeping a close eye on things as we push the platform farther.

Putting a turbo EZ30R in an Impreza is an expensive way to make HP, and that is one of the reasons we have not experimented on a customer car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adhowe70 View Post
^ And I'm willing to drop my car off at PDXTuning to have them find the full potential of the EZ in N/A form.
My wallet just has reservations about the idea.
I have put some thought into the possibilites of greater power with your setup Andy. We should talk. Making more power with a NA setup can be very challenging, especially that particular motor. I'll drop you an email.

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Old 04-12-2007, 09:52 PM   #60
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Thanks for the detailed response. Its sad it takes so much work for the motor, but oh well, Subaru didnt really design it like they did the EJ's... I just wish the ECU wasnt such a pain to deal with so a swap would be easier to do
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Old 04-12-2007, 10:45 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
also looks like it is dual avcs...haven't done any reading on it though...
That would be my primary concern. AFAIK nobody that has a running EZ30R has figured out how to tune the AVCS, so adding AVCS to the exhaust, too, would just mean the engine has twice the untapped potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX
edit: that assymetrical connecting rod is what increases the stroke without increasing the stroke of the crank...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
someone hasn't done their reading...the motor/crank isn't stroked...change the rods and you loose your extra stroke(if you don't retain same geometry)...according to the article at least.
I'm definitely missing something here in trying to visualize this. I don't understand how it is physically possible to change the stroke of an engine without changing the stroke of the crank. Regardless of the shape of the connecting rod, the only dimension that matters is the center-to-center length, so I just can't visualize how this assymetric rod would change the stroke.

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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
The 3.6 weighs as much as any of the turboed EJ motors. Perhaps less now that it lost 10lbs compaired to the 3.0.
Based on what data? Who knows how much the 3.6 weighs? Nobody even knows how much the EZ30R weighs. I'll weigh mine eventually (once I clear some other projects out of the way), and I've weighed a N/A DOHC EJ25, but the only other weight "data" I've seen for the EZ30R was based on a couple people weighing different cars with different modifications and making assumptions about how the weights compared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
I have put some thought into the possibilites of greater power with your setup Andy. We should talk. Making more power with a NA setup can be very challenging, especially that particular motor. I'll drop you an email.

Jeff Sponaugle
Jeff, include me on the email, too, if you don't mind.

Pat Olsen
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Last edited by Patrick Olsen; 04-12-2007 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 04-12-2007, 11:00 PM   #62
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That would be my primary concern. AFAIK nobody that has a running EZ30R has figured out how to tune the AVCS, so adding AVCS to the exhaust, too, would just mean the engine has twice the untapped potential.
yes they have. I can't say for the handful of other people with successful swaps, but read through Perrin's write-up about his swap. he specifically mentions adding the AVCS in.
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:20 AM   #63
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yes they have. I can't say for the handful of other people with successful swaps, but read through Perrin's write-up about his swap. he specifically mentions adding the AVCS in.
This Perrin write-up? The only time AVCS is mentioned in that thread is in the very first post when he describes the engine. I've looked through the PDXTuning/Perrin thread in the past and haven't seen any AVCS tuning info. Can you point me in the right direction?

Pat
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Old 04-13-2007, 02:48 AM   #64
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This Perrin write-up? The only time AVCS is mentioned in that thread is in the very first post when he describes the engine. I've looked through the PDXTuning/Perrin thread in the past and haven't seen any AVCS tuning info. Can you point me in the right direction?

Pat
oh, sorry, it's the AVLS they got working (I always get those mixed up). although the 4-cyl motors have the AVCS, so I don't know why hydra wouldn't be able to control that too. and they DID get the AVLS working, he specifically talks about tuning that in the end of post #2.

and as far as I've been able to understand, the lump in the cam sprocket is from the AVLS, which allows for the numerous cam profiles.
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Old 04-13-2007, 06:27 AM   #65
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That would be great in my outback for wheelin' machine...
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Old 04-13-2007, 09:59 AM   #66
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oh, sorry, it's the AVLS they got working (I always get those mixed up). although the 4-cyl motors have the AVCS, so I don't know why hydra wouldn't be able to control that too.
From what I understand from Andy's (adhowe70) posting in the EZ30R swap thread, Hydra can control the AVCS, but it's only open loop control. What I think that means is that you'd have to do a metric ass-ton of dyno time on a load-bearing dyno so that you could build the AVCS map for the full range of load and RPM.

I do wonder if one would be reasonably close if one started with the AVCS map from an STI, since I think the capability is out there to read that map. Intake cam timing will obviously be different for a turbo application than for a N/A application, but I would think it would at least be a good starting point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbchux View Post
and they DID get the AVLS working, he specifically talks about tuning that in the end of post #2.

and as far as I've been able to understand, the lump in the cam sprocket is from the AVLS, which allows for the numerous cam profiles.
Yeah, the AVLS is just an on-off switch, so that's the easy one. If one were to get custom cams made ($$$ I would think, due to the dual profiles) you could do quite a bit with that, which is something I think Andy is considering for his EZ30R.

Pat
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:16 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
Based on what data? Who knows how much the 3.6 weighs? Nobody even knows how much the EZ30R weighs. I'll weigh mine eventually (once I clear some other projects out of the way), and I've weighed a N/A DOHC EJ25, but the only other weight "data" I've seen for the EZ30R was based on a couple people weighing different cars with different modifications and making assumptions about how the weights compared.
Anyone who has had one shipped or had one on a pallet knows how much it weighs.

Gruppe-S should know for sure, so if you are that curious email them.
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:27 PM   #68
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Thanks for the detailed response. Its sad it takes so much work for the motor, but oh well, Subaru didnt really design it like they did the EJ's... I just wish the ECU wasnt such a pain to deal with so a swap would be easier to do
Yes, it clearly wasn't designed for turbo applications. The rods, sleeves, and crank are all pretty light in the strength department. We have the ability to reflash a Tribeca ECU, but it would be a pain to wire up. The Hydra was much more straightforward to wire up, although you really have to make a custom engine harness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
That would be my primary concern. AFAIK nobody that has a running EZ30R has figured out how to tune the AVCS, so adding AVCS to the exhaust, too, would just mean the engine has twice the untapped potential.

Pat Olsen
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Both Jeff and I have played around with the AVCS, as well as the AVLS. The AVLS is easy, as it is just an on/off switch. The AVCS when controlled by the hydra does not do closed loop, so it pretty much is an on/off as well. I tried running maximum AVCS advance during spoolup and it didn't seem to make any difference. Up top the AVCS needs to be off to make good power, so the only area of advantage might be light throttle stuff. I would expect on the NA side things might be very different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
From what I understand from Andy's (adhowe70) posting in the EZ30R swap thread, Hydra can control the AVCS, but it's only open loop control. What I think that means is that you'd have to do a metric ass-ton of dyno time on a load-bearing dyno so that you could build the AVCS map for the full range of load and RPM.

Yeah, the AVLS is just an on-off switch, so that's the easy one. If one were to get custom cams made ($$$ I would think, due to the dual profiles) you could do quite a bit with that, which is something I think Andy is considering for his EZ30R.

Pat
The dyno wouldn't really make a difference, as the closed loop problem means you can really only run either no advance or maximum advance. While you could try programming in lower duty cycles, the change in oil pressure alone would run havok with that setup. Non closed loop AVCS is rediculous from the start.

Pat: I'll include you on the email discussions as well.

Cheers

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Old 04-13-2007, 12:29 PM   #69
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oh, sorry, it's the AVLS they got working (I always get those mixed up). although the 4-cyl motors have the AVCS, so I don't know why hydra wouldn't be able to control that too. and they DID get the AVLS working, he specifically talks about tuning that in the end of post #2.

and as far as I've been able to understand, the lump in the cam sprocket is from the AVLS, which allows for the numerous cam profiles.
I assume you meant AVCS. The cam sprockets on the intake side are AVCS sprockets, just like the STI ones. The AVLS is controlled by a solenoid on the back side of the heads.

Jeff
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:45 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Anyone who has had one shipped or had one on a pallet knows how much it weighs.
And yet, again, nobody has been able to volunteer this apparently readily available number when this question has been brought up in just about every thread about the H-6s.

I haven't looked around much, but I'd be surprised if one could find an accurate weight for a complete EJ20 or EJ25 (with turbo and intercooler and stuff).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen
Gruppe-S should know for sure, so if you are that curious email them.
I have an EZ30R that I bought from Gruppe-S. It was shipped in a heavy wire-frame crate, so the shipping weight isn't going to give any real idea of what the engine itself weighs. I know the movers loved getting this thing into/out of the truck when I moved from MD to RI. I'd guess the steel "crate" weighs well over 100# by itself - it's pretty damn stout.


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Old 04-13-2007, 04:29 PM   #71
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I assume you meant AVCS. The cam sprockets on the intake side are AVCS sprockets, just like the STI ones. The AVLS is controlled by a solenoid on the back side of the heads.

Jeff
I didn't....which means I was wrong. I thought the lump in the cam sprocket allowed the cam to move forward and backward to allow for the multiple sets of lobes to be used.

So, the EZ36 has AVCS on the exhaust side too? but not AVLS? or maybe both? huh....now I'm really confused
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:42 PM   #72
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If you search for "AVLS" in the Normally Aspirated forum Kostamojen posted a PDF description that explains how the AVLS works. The cams don't move forward and backward, there are two sets of lobes and the lifters have two parts to them corresponding to the high and low lift lobes.

Strictly based on what I've read here on NASIOC, the 3.6 has AVCS on both intake and exhaust. I haven't specifically seen any mention of AVLS on the 3.6, but I'd be rather surprised if they did away with it. The press release talks about "improving low end torque without sacrificing top end power", and having variable lift cams certainly helps to do that.

Pat

Last edited by Patrick Olsen; 04-13-2007 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:51 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
If you search for "AVLS" in the Normally Aspirated forum Kostamojen posted a PDF description that explains how the AVLS works. The cams don't move forward and backward, there are two sets of lobes and the lifters have two parts to them corresponding to the high and low lift lobes.

Strictly based on what I've read here on NASIOC, the 3.6 has AVCS on both intake and exhaust. I haven't specifically seen any mention of AVLS on the 3.6, but I'd be rather surprised if they did away with it. The press release talks about "improving low end torque without sacrificing top end power", and having variable lift cams certainly helps to do that.

Pat
If you take a close look at the 3.6L cutaway, the intake cam DOES NOT have the three lobe setup. From looking at that picture, I would guess the motor does not have AVLS. As for AVCS, the other picture that was in motortrend more clearly shows the lower solenoid for the exhaust AVCS, so I suspect our guess on that account is correct.

With the lack of AVLS, it may be eaiser to get custom cams made. Also, the bucket weight is MUCH less without the AVLS stuff, and that may help to extend the redline a bit.

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Old 04-13-2007, 05:55 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
If you search for "AVLS" in the Normally Aspirated forum Kostamojen posted a PDF description that explains how the AVLS works. The cams don't move forward and backward, there are two sets of lobes and the lifters have two parts to them corresponding to the high and low lift lobes.

Pat
Also, that document is not a description of the AVLS in the H6 EZ30R, as the EZ30R is direct action (no rocker arm). The AVLS is actuated by a variable design bucket that uses oil pressure to selected the middle or outer lobe.

Jeff
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Old 04-13-2007, 10:27 PM   #75
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And yet, again, nobody has been able to volunteer this apparently readily available number when this question has been brought up in just about every thread about the H-6s.

Pat
So, are you asking me to call SOA and ask for engine weights for shipping?
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