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Old 04-30-2007, 04:18 PM   #1
NITROS
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Exclamation Does anyone have the LGT 1-2, wrx 3-4-5 combo or similar in and driving? 4.11 Fin Drv

There is alot of talk about this combo and im just curious, does anyone have it done yet?

I blew 3rd gear last sat 4-28-07. I'm pushing about 270 whp and over 300 wtq with my 2.5 vf22 setup. I am planning to upgrade to an fpgreen.

Check for post # 3 for all the believed parts needed for this swap from a 04 wrx tranny to the LGT-WRX combo tranny.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...87&postcount=3
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Last edited by NITROS; 04-30-2007 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 04-30-2007, 04:49 PM   #2
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I have an older STi trans, which is the same 1st/2nd. I love the ratios in 1st/2nd, BIG difference. I also have a 4.44 FD, but I think the 4.11 FD is a good balance between the kinda deep wrx 3.90 and the high winding 4.44
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Old 04-30-2007, 05:57 PM   #3
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I like to thank both Tristan and Jeremy (TheKingOfParts) over at Fred Beans Subaru for a great deal.


32231-AA950 -- LGT 1ST GEAR
32251-AA620 -- LGT 2ND GEAR
32650-AA032 -- LGT 1-2 SYNCHRO SET
32214-AA720 -- 04 WRX 3/4TH GEAR SET
32650-AA051 -- 04 WRX SYNCHRO SET
32201-AB020 -- MAIN SHAFT
32219-AA320 -- GEAR AND HUB SET
38100-AB340 -- 4.11 F/D SET
32714-AA190 -- SPEEDO GEAR
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Old 04-30-2007, 06:07 PM   #4
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When are we pulling it out?
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Old 05-01-2007, 11:29 AM   #5
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I thought there was a 1st gear dual-cone synchro jut for first. I could be wrong, but you may want to double check.
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Old 05-01-2007, 12:25 PM   #6
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what would the advantage be changing the final to 4.11 from the stock 3.90? i mean besides the acceleration. ive read that it doesnt stress the gears as much but i dont understand why.
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Old 05-01-2007, 12:55 PM   #7
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Think about how leverage works.

If you are using a pry-bar: A longer pry-bar gives you more leverage, and thus makes it easier for you to move something.

Gears work the same way, basically a circular lever. 4.11:1 spins the wheels slower for any given engine rpm than 3.90:1, but the 4.11:1 ratio allows the engine exert more leverage on the wheels. So, very basically, power is transfered from the engine through the clutch to gearset (gears 1-5) then through the final drive gearing (4.11:1 ratio in this case). Gears 1-5 are what usually break, allowing them to have more leverage decreases stress.

Good example: When you ride a bicycle up a hill and shift a few gears to make it easier, you are changing your final drive gear ratio. Think of your legs as the gearset, you are pedaling more, but the work you are doing is not as hard and your legs do not have to exert so much force in order to move the bike.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:19 PM   #8
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^ This may or may not be true. I hope it is but there are alot of other that argue that the 4.11 will not help with strength/ reliability.


But because the gear ratios are so much closer to each other the shock load should be so high for the 1 -2 -3 shifts.

But by doing the 4.11 FD i will now be able cruise at 35-40 miles at approximately 2.5k rpm a little bit more into my power band so no down shifting.
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Old 05-01-2007, 04:19 PM   #9
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May or may not be true!?!? There are folks that are skeptical about the existance of leverage? Isn't that a bit like saying "I don't believe in gravity?"

-I dare you to ride a bike up a hill in in the hardest gear
-Now change down a few gears (increasing gear ratio) and try again
-You notice that you have to pedal more to get the same speed, however, are your legs having to deal with as much resistance the second time? No.
-There... proven.

Can somebody please chime in that has taken a high school physics course so I can get some support here?

You realize that if this were not true there would be no reason for cars to have variable gearing right? That and if this suddenly ceased to be true the fabric of existance would go all kinds of crazy... Like a kid on one side a see-saw would get launched into outer space, automotive brake pads would shoot out of the wheels instead of squeezing the rotors, crow-bars would suck you into the crack you are trying to pry apart, and breaker bars would make it harder to un-bolt things. That would be no good.

Last edited by jhargis; 05-01-2007 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 05-01-2007, 04:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NITROS View Post
^ This may or may not be true. I hope it is but there are alot of other that argue that the 4.11 will not help with strength/ reliability.
It is absolutely true, and anyone that would argue otherwise is flat-out wrongheaded.
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Old 05-01-2007, 05:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenk View Post
It is absolutely true, and anyone that would argue otherwise is flat-out wrongheaded.
I would argue, but then I would be flat-out wrongheaded. Not to mention just plain wrong.

Now, like everything there is a down side to a taller FD. While acceleration may be more brisk, you'll run through the gears more quickly, and your RPMs will be higher at a given speed than with a shorter FD. In the end, this hurts the gas milage for two reasons. First - the higher RPM for a given speed. Second, the YAHOO!! factor of taking off.


Me? It would be all YAHOO!!
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Old 05-01-2007, 05:34 PM   #12
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^^^ Stupid universe with everything always having trade-offs

Bingo... my 4.44s may knock a couple of mpg out of the picture (3500rpm @ 75mph may not be the best thing these days), but working the clutch is much easier and I have that small additional piece of mind that this transmission might actually hold together under reasonable driving conditions.

That extra "yahoo" level is pretty nifty too.
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Old 05-01-2007, 06:14 PM   #13
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thanks for explaination guys i appreciate that

sorry, one more question.... would i have to change anything with the front or rear diff's if i go to 4.11fd?

Last edited by romanlynch; 05-01-2007 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romanlynch View Post
thanks for explaination guys i appreciate that

sorry, one more question.... would i have to change anything with the front or rear diff's if i go to 4.11fd?
Yes, ring and pinion.
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Old 05-03-2007, 02:45 AM   #15
livin in wrxtasy
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just go to andrewtech an put a dogbox in you will never worry about your tranny again
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Old 05-03-2007, 03:01 AM   #16
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+1 for dog engagement. ;P Let the big dogbox eat! Only thing about dog engagement box......you have to shift like an asshat the rest of your life because there will be no "easing it into gear" its vroom, jerk, vroom, jerk, vroom, jerk. (IMO its ok to drive like that since the dogbox is built to do that, but local popo's don't like it so much) However, yes, you'll never worry about your tranny again, they rock.
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Old 05-03-2007, 03:21 AM   #17
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geez wth is the magic/curse with vf22s and 3rd gear.... Ever since the wrx came out and people started throwing those on their cars... POOF 3rd goes bye bye.
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Old 05-03-2007, 12:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livin in wrxtasy View Post
just go to andrewtech an put a dogbox in you will never worry about your tranny again
That's a played out answer. Not everybody has the funding to buy a brand new wrx and put a ppg dogbox in right away like it's no big deal... And dogboxes are annoying to a lot of folks. They are loud, require noisy and jerky shifting, etc. I wouldn't mind, but not everybody wants their car to sound like a vaccum cleaner sucking a quarter off of the floor every time they shift.

Besides, if the OP had PPG money to blow, I'm sure he wouldn't be asking about a low buck alternative to RA gears.
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Old 05-03-2007, 01:51 PM   #19
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^-- +1 to that. maybe when im making a lot more money and have those pesky bills paid off i *might* think about getting the ppg gearset. however for my whoping stage .5 wrx i think the lgt set-up is good enough.
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Old 05-03-2007, 02:55 PM   #20
NITROS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
May or may not be true!?!? There are folks that are skeptical about the existance of leverage? Isn't that a bit like saying "I don't believe in gravity?"

-I dare you to ride a bike up a hill in in the hardest gear
-Now change down a few gears (increasing gear ratio) and try again
-You notice that you have to pedal more to get the same speed, however, are your legs having to deal with as much resistance the second time? No.
-There... proven.

Can somebody please chime in that has taken a high school physics course so I can get some support here?

You realize that if this were not true there would be no reason for cars to have variable gearing right? That and if this suddenly ceased to be true the fabric of existance would go all kinds of crazy... Like a kid on one side a see-saw would get launched into outer space, automotive brake pads would shoot out of the wheels instead of squeezing the rotors, crow-bars would suck you into the crack you are trying to pry apart, and breaker bars would make it harder to un-bolt things. That would be no good.

Until i can get scientific proof (Actual test results) that the gears have less stress i will continue to say may or may not be true. To me it sounds honestly that the engine has to do less work. And i have reason to believe my 3rd went because of driveline shock because of crappy ecu programming in the stock 04 ecu. I had shocked my tranny dozens of times during throttle lift, before i got my utec. Then by doubling my TQ/HP output that finished it.

I like the fact that the gear ratios are better paired and that my third gear will get less shock force during shifts. That is what I am betting on to keep it together. Honestly, I believe a 04 wrx tranny can hold up really well provided that you installed a EM to get rid of driveline shock on lift when you bought the car.

My friend (drinkav8) with a gt30r kit put down somewhere in the range of 360 whp and his tranny lasted longer then mine. I only had about 36k on mine; he had 80k. And he shifts the damn car. I grannyshift and always slip in clutch during shifts. Him no so much. But his car is now wrecked so we dunno how much longer it would have lasted. (He had an EM on the car almost immediately after he bought it.)

My 3rd gear went during normal driving conditions and I wasnt on it or anything.

Last edited by NITROS; 05-03-2007 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 05-03-2007, 03:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NITROS View Post
Until i can get scientific proof (Actual test results) that the gears have less stress i will continue to say may or may not be true. To me it sounds honestly that the engine has to do less work. And i have reason to believe my 3rd went because of driveline shock because of crappy ecu programming in the stock 04 ecu. I had shocked my tranny dozens of times during throttle lift, before i got my utec. Then by doubling my TQ/HP output that finished it.
I like the fact that the gear ratios are better paired and that my third gear will get less shock force during shifts. That is what I am betting on to keep it together. Honestly, I believe a 04 wrx tranny can hold up really well provided that you installed a EM to get rid of driveline shock on lift when you bought the car.

My friend (drinkav8) with a gt30r kit put down somewhere in the range of 360 whp and his tranny lasted longer then mine. I only had about 36k on mine; he had 80k. And he shifts the damn car. I grannyshift and always slip in clutch during shifts. Him no so much. But his car is now wrecked so we dunno how much longer it would have lasted. (He had an EM on the car almost immediately after he bought it.)
My 3rd gear went during normal driving conditions and I wasnt on it or anything.
The "shock on lift" you are talking about is NOT what blew your gears. So the ecu tuning to remove "shock on lift" has nothing to do with it.
The reason it lets go under "normal" driving conditions is because it had already been damaged during a hard shift/shockload and was just waiting to let go.
The part in red with a bad shift is what killed your transmission.

And just to reiterate what everyone has said... Lower FDs will help relieve stress on your transmission. I don't know what part of that you don't get?
Think of it this way if you'd like instead of the crowbar analogy...
If you were using 16" wheels and romping on it, the engine is free to move the car quite quickly, and everything "moves along smoothly" for lack of a better term (running on a couple hours sleep here sorry lol).
Now, throw on a set of 25" wheels and tires (if that was even possible) and see how much work your engine has to do (against the poor tranny) to get the car moving. This increase in force necessary to move the car translates to more force on your gears. Less stress with smaller rims (lower FD) = less chance of gears snappin'.
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Old 05-03-2007, 04:52 PM   #22
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^^^ By golly, I think this chap's got it.
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Old 05-04-2007, 12:29 AM   #23
livin in wrxtasy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
That's a played out answer. Not everybody has the funding to buy a brand new wrx and put a ppg dogbox in right away like it's no big deal... And dogboxes are annoying to a lot of folks. They are loud, require noisy and jerky shifting, etc. I wouldn't mind, but not everybody wants their car to sound like a vaccum cleaner sucking a quarter off of the floor every time they shift.

Besides, if the OP had PPG money to blow, I'm sure he wouldn't be asking about a low buck alternative to RA gears.
if you know how to drive a dogbox it isnt really that bad you can still use the clutch to shift and when you double clutch its almost smoother than stock as for the sound get the helical cut gears and thats not that bad either
but i blew my third gear when i was stock 9000 miles on the car under normal driving conditions
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:29 AM   #24
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I want someone with "new" vehicles to trade in some "old" trannies and see what happens. I am running 350-400 torque in a 1990 5mt...... Why hasnt something 17 years old broken yet with over 100 drag launches?

Anywho, good luck!
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Old 05-04-2007, 02:27 AM   #25
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LOL it's funny when people try to argue that FD ratio has no effect on transmission stress/life. What part of physics 101 don't you understand?

You're trading speed for force - horsepower vs. torque, the same principle. You don't need to "test" it - you're talking about mechanical truths here...
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