Track Day: Tires and Brakes

[Aku Zaan]

Greetings All: I thought about posting in the technical area for this, but I decided I care more about what you guys think.

I am running in a track event this weekend, and am having serious FADE.

The first several laps everything goes great, but as things start to heat up the pedal gets real squishy (yes a technical term). I assume that the rubber brake lines are simply heating up and that is the source of the problem.

I bled the breaks while off the track today and that seemed to help some.


Anyone else had something similar, and or knows something I can do to minimize this until I can switch out for stainless? (other than slowing down, or stopping the use of the brakes )


Also for the racers in the group, what cold pressure do you guys run? I am still on stock STi wheels and tires.

Thanks.....that is all

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[Texas25RS]

TRhe squish is most likely NOT your brake lines. You are probably boiling the brake fluid and/or over working your pads. The REAL answers for your problems would be to upgrade to a better brake pad (it is easy to change pads at the track, so you could buy a better track pad JUST for the track and use your street pads on the street) and replace your brake fluid with a better fluid (like Super Blue or even the Valvoline Synthetic). Replacing your brake lines won't help you very much...

[Hotrodguru]

You need two things...pads and fluid to start off.

My personal preference:

Hawk HP + Pads
ATE Super Blue Fluid

[afpdl]

Steel lines heat up just like rubber ones. Just like they said the problem is your pads and fluid.

[LiquidIQ]

Originally Posted by Hotrodguru

You need two things...pads and fluid to start off.

My personal preference:

Hawk HP + Pads
ATE Super Blue Fluid

The Hawk HP did so-so on my MSR run the other month. I think a HP Plus would be a better bet if you want something you can street/light track with.

The HP held up, but I wasn't going balls out since there was water on the track.

[Aku Zaan]

Ok....Thanks All

I am already running Motol fluid and have had several people help me check the pads, but I guess I am exceeding what the stock STi pads will handle.

[Hotrodguru]

Originally Posted by LiquidIQ

The Hawk HP did so-so on my MSR run the other month. I think a HP Plus would be a better bet if you want something you can street/light track with.

The HP held up, but I wasn't going balls out since there was water on the track.

Yeah, I've used the non + Hawks and some Axxis at a few track days. Not at MSR but at TWS. Talk about fade city...especially with the Axxis. Turn one though at TWS does have a much higher entry speed.

The +'s on the other hand did quite well, didn't fade at all till some really long stints.

[Edward STi]

I'm a big fan of PF 97's. I used them on my Lightning and I've seen several guys run them on their STi's with good results. One other thing you make want to consider is your braking technique. If your charging every corner, you could be overdriving the car. Regarding tire pressures, street rubber shouldn't be run above about 42psi hot. There's no easy answer on what that equates to cold since each corner will see different loads which vary with track and direction. Given the STi's push, I recommend equal tire pressures front to back - assuming a stiffened rear sway.

[salaki]

I started @ 34 before the start of every sessions.
Usually about 1-2 hours wait until the next session.
And ended up w/ 38-40 psi hot.

For brake setup...
I'm still using stock STi pads and Valvoline fluid w/ SS lines.
The fluid lasted me 2 days w/ total of 8 sessions and still drives home good and can be used for daily drive until the next flush usually 1 day before track day

You might have overworked your brake.
Do you brake deep in a split second (late brake) or do you brake longer (not as deep/early brake) when you approach the turn? This might be a reason that you drag your brake too long that it heated up unnecessarily.

My STi can go up to 100-107mph (speedo) on straight line in MSR Cresson/Dallas.
I don't know about MSR Houston. This track might have a higher speed on the straight line before the turn = need a better pad.

Let us know what pads you decide to use because I'm considering to upgrade my pads too once this stock one is finished.

[dsmith]

Stainless lines only change pedal feel. as noted, lines have nothing to do with fade. they are still rubber lines inside. i don't like them, 'cuz i can't tell if the line is damaged as easily. if you use them on the track, make them 1-2 year replacement item, i do it every year.

Your stock brakes should be fine (if you don't have crazy power), so you must be way over using them, have completely cooked fluid, and/or you have a stuck caliper (check uneven pad wear). Ex: I ran my stock 06 2.5i for 4 hours at MSRH one day w/o issue (just needed to replace pads after lunch).

I'm guessing you have instructors? So have them note your brake use.

Let us know what you find.

David

[Pantera]

Once again! EBC Yellows for track and street use on every car I own.

I spend a lot of time on the track. They are great.

[scottjua]

On the track in both wagon and STi we run ATE Super Blue/Type 200 (the gold type 200 is the same as blue, just different color for easy fluid flushes) fluid, and Carbotech Panther Plus pads. The wagon can make do with bobcat street pads in the rears, and P+ up front, but after the first track day in the STi, I was fading the stock pads and fluid quite a bit at the end of the day.

Another issue is cooling...

As my lap times drop throughout the day and I get into the groove, I can feel that even the P+ pads and ATE fluid can't handle some of the intense heat without enough air flowing over the rotors and pads between braking zones. I will seek out a cheap duct plan to hopefully get some more cool air to the rotors a la the guy with the White 06 Sti who seems to always be at MSR Cresson when I go. He's an older gentleman, but if you ever see him, ask him about his brake ducting mod.

[afpdl]

Another interesting brake cooling product http://www.fourproducts.com/FSBC.html

[Aku Zaan]

Originally Posted by dsmith

I'm guessing you have instructors? So have them note your brake use.

Let us know what you find.

David

Yes we have instructors available, I grabbed one of the advanced instructors who also happened to be a mechanic and we went for a ride. I also had him take a look at the pads etc. We also got with the tech onsite who had bled my brakes at lunch on the first day.



Pads were wearing evenly, but down to between 20 and 30 percent of total, fluid looked fine at the time of bleed, but we flushed it anyway.
On the driver error side of things, we adjusted my braking zones, as fade became an issue I backed them up and reverted to the everyday driving “long brake zones” so I was carrying a lot more heat than I needed to. Getting the balls to trust the brakes and go back to a racing brake zone helped quite a bit. This event was held and TWS and I must admit my balls shrivel up as I dive down into turn one at between 120 and 130 and then floor it down the hill to help stabilize in the transition. I can’t imagine what will happen to them when we run clockwise I am diving down looking at 15, 14, 13. God save me.


Actions: I am in the process of finding new pads, going to hold off on rotors until I eat these up a bit more, but when that happens I will get something that is drilled or slotted. For the rest, I just have to make myself better.

B

[dsmith]

Originally Posted by Aku Zaan

On the driver error side of things, we adjusted my braking zones, as fade became an issue I backed them up and reverted to the everyday driving “long brake zones” so I was carrying a lot more heat than I needed to. Getting the balls to trust the brakes and go back to a racing brake zone helped quite a bit. This event was held and TWS and I must admit my balls shrivel up as I dive down into turn one at between 120 and 130 and then floor it down the hill to help stabilize in the transition. I can’t imagine what will happen to them when we run clockwise I am diving down looking at 15, 14, 13. God save me.

B

Thanks, that confirmed my suspicions. I've only had fade at TWS on stock cars after 45 min sessions. There's plenty of room between turns at TWS to cool the brakes, if not overused. Yes, clockwise is a shriveler coming off the banking before braking! It's really fun at the start of a race with 30 cars...

sounds like a good time. you'll get better, don't worry, but pads and better fluid will help. I personally don't like the colored blue/gold fluids cuz it stains everything. i like the Ford fluid. you can get it at any dealer, it's cheap, and as good as the rest. learn more about proper/efficient braking on track and you'll be much faster and almost no fade.

David