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Old 05-19-2007, 08:49 AM   #1
ButtDyno
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Default The official Tein S-tech FAQ

This used to be part of the "suspension upgrade guide" thread, but I felt that it was getting missed. That thread is here:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=680651

"I bought my S-techs on eBay and got a sweet deal!"

Unless they paid you to take them, you didn't get a sweet deal. But you might have actually gotten counterfeit springs. See here:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1414659

It contains a link to Tein's website so you can tell the real ones from the fake ones.

But really, you don't want EITHER of them.

"This wheel gap is killing me. What are the best springs?"

Just buy some Tein "Style Master" green springs, and stop reading. If you actually care about making your car handle better, keep going

"Uncle Scotty keeps telling me that Subaru's don't like to be slammed. What does that mean?"

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnie
The majority of folk who have been on this board for a longer time value performance above all and are dedicated to finding and sharing accurate and proper information.

the idea of aesthetic lowering is anathema to many here (though there are quite a few pundits lurking). We care about the car handling as well as it possibly can for its given purpose. One of those caveats to good handling is not lowering too much without properly addressing the changes in suspension geometry.

There are plenty of people who think just lowering a car makes it handle "tite". I was driving behind this Civic today that was lowered (not too excessively) that was just bouncing all over the highway. Looked dope, handled like crap. To each their own, obviously, but if someone is really interested in making their cars handle well, this board is good place to start.

In regards to lowering compared to other cars...well, most newbs see the towering fender gap on the WRX/STi then glance over to a Porsche/Ferrari/BMW, etc. with barely any fender gap and think, "hey, I want my car to look as low as that". That is the beginning of the problem. Those cars are designed that way out of the box and trying to get a WRX to look as low as that is definitely going to present some compromises, usually to handling.

"Are you insinuating that the Tein springs won't help my handling?"

Please read this thread in detail: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=745420
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering
my dad used to say,....." some people have to step in it and smell it to realize.."
"I don't want just want the car lower, I want it 'even'. The uneven wheel gap fails to impress my friends."

Are we learning yet?

"What do you know? You don't run S-Techs. I got them and my car handles mad tyte!"

No, I have never put them on my car. Here's a review from someone who has. (emphasis added)
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...8&postcount=30

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhluhr
DrBiggly is absolutely right. Tein S-Techs are NOT a performance handling modification.

If you notice, Tein spec's the same spring for 2004+ WRX AND 2004+ STi. At least on the STi you have a lot of damping out of the struts. On the WRX you've got relatively very little.

If somebody wants to tell me "shut up, you don't own them" I'll laugh, because I have owned them and they blow chunks. Worst suspension modification I ever made. I had previously had V7 springs on V7 struts and simply changing to Tein S-Tech springs made my car handle like crap. It was understeer city.

Now, wanna know why?

roll center vs cg height
Quite simply: The tein S-Techs lower the car SO MUCH that your roll center drops farther than your CG. The effect of this is a slight net increase in total amount of roll couple for a given cornering force. Now, the spring rates are increased a little so you don't get as much actual roll, but don't think that the 20% increase in spring rates translates to 20% less roll. You end up with like maye 5% less roll (which is nothing).

camber curve
If you have the linkage removed from the car and you can move it through its range, you will easily see that as you compress the suspension past the point where the control arm is level, the camber starts increasing. This is bad because while the car is rolling in a corner, the outside (heavily loaded tire) needs the camber to be optimal and with the car already sitting too low, when you roll it more, the camber just goes to hell a lot quicker and you ultimately lose grip over a suspension that sits higher. Sure, you can just dial in a lot more static negative camber, but then braking and acceleration out of corners suffer dramatically.

bump travel
At stock ride height, your WRX struts only have about 90mm of bump travel before they hit the bumpstops. Now if you remove 2.4" of bump travel by dropping the suspension, you now have only about 40mm. That is less than 2 inches. Now tell me if you think 2 inches of travel is enough to accomodate hitting even a small bump during cornering... or even it 2" is enough to accomodate rolling in the first place. How much does one side of your car compress in a hard corner? (hint: it's more than 2"). The problem with riding and bumping the bumpstops is that when that happens, the spring rate increases dramatically at that wheel and you end up suddenly overloading the tire's grip. This manifests itself as a car that just won't grip past a certain amount even though it should. A lot of times you will hear S-Tech owners telling you they are not hitting the bumpstops at all. My answer to them is that they just don't know what they are talking about. Hitting the bumpstops is not something that will feel like a sudden hard jolt. In fact, most drivers would be hard pressed to even tell you they hit it. You can read what one professional suspension shop has to say about bumpstops:
http://www.ground-control.com/?D=16a...d3a83c24dd1fa8

All in all, The S-Techs do a GREAT job of doing what they are designed to do. The fact of the matter though is that performance handling is NOT part of their design. They are simply for making your car LOOK stylisticly low. In fact, when you buy S-Techs, you quickly see on the box the words "Style Master" (whereas if you buy any of Tein's coilovers, it says "Handling Master").
"But all these other people say they're fine! One guy has 200K miles on his stock struts and he can still deliver tofu without spilling the water!"

It's difficult to take those posts too seriously. The data/science is against them. Most of them have probably never tried anything else other than the stock stuff. And nhluhr is never wrong. No, seriously, he really isn't. I think in his previous life he invented the automobile suspension or something.



Anyway hopefully this can put to bed all S-tech related inquiries.

Thanks!

John
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Last edited by ButtDyno; 12-27-2007 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 05-19-2007, 09:21 AM   #2
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Sticky!
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Old 05-20-2007, 02:34 AM   #3
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I lol'd.

I'm surprised something like this wasn't in earlier stickys (perhaps some relavance in the FAQs IIRC), awesome to make a dedicated topic on it for emphasis.

-paK +3
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Old 05-20-2007, 02:36 AM   #4
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Damnit! Here's I've been spending the last 2 weeks writing an S.Tech FAQ and you publish before I can. I do go into some more technical detail than the nhluhr quote does though. Should I finish it so we have dueling FAQs, or just let it die?
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Old 05-20-2007, 04:00 AM   #5
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Is the anyway we can get a faq on what springs are bad for stock wrx struts, what combos tophats and stock struts are bad also.
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Old 05-20-2007, 08:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingobite View Post
Is the anyway we can get a faq on what springs are bad for stock wrx struts, what combos tophats and stock struts are bad also.
Sub 100K userid, and no "STi" or "WRX" in your name == you should know about the search feature and the products review area by now.

"But why do S-tech get a FAQ all by themselves?"
Because every single n00b tool, yes tool, who is a clueless schmuck has absolutely no idea that the search button even exists. Heck, the very fact that they are considering S-techs is a testiment to just how clueless they are.

Then you get the big ones. The ones who are truly dumb. They're the ones who argue with you when they don't like your answer. Here's an example:

n00b: Should I get S-techs to make my car handle better.

Helpful person: No. They are crap. Here's why....

n00b: But my friend has them on his car, and he installed them himself so he must be a genius about cars, and he told me to get them so I should.

Helpful person (what they usually say): Here's some more reasons why they are bad....

Helpful person (what they really should say): You're an idiot. Oh, and your friend, he's a bigger one. You know what - go put them on your car. It'll be your contribution toward stimulating the economy when you have to replace your struts and get springs that work. Oh, and your friend, you should punch him in the nose.

n00b: But my friend is really smart...

HP: No. He isn't.
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Old 05-20-2007, 09:37 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Damnit! Here's I've been spending the last 2 weeks writing an S.Tech FAQ and you publish before I can. I do go into some more technical detail than the nhluhr quote does though. Should I finish it so we have dueling FAQs, or just let it die?
It's *been* published It was part of the "best coilover" thread. But clearly, not enough people were finding it.

Up to you, I'll certainly add it to this if you finish it (I feel that the non-technical aspects of the FAQ are pretty okay here )

john
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Old 05-20-2007, 02:36 PM   #8
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
"I don't want just want the car lower, I want it 'even'. The uneven wheel gap fails to impress my friends."

Are we learning yet?
Thanks!

John
Can we get something a little more up to date here? I want it lower, especially in the front, than my Eibach Pro springs. I also want a bit of forgiveness on the rear end.

I'm also not talking about "slammed honda" low, just want it even, which the Eibach springs don't give.

EDIT: Christ, I forgot to say thanks for the write-up.
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninethreeeleven View Post
Can we get something a little more up to date here? I want it lower, especially in the front, than my Eibach Pro springs. I also want a bit of forgiveness on the rear end.

I'm also not talking about "slammed honda" low, just want it even, which the Eibach springs don't give.

EDIT: Christ, I forgot to say thanks for the write-up.
Jesus, this was half the point of the FAQ. The fender gaps aren't supposed to be even! When the chassis is sitting level, the fender gap will be larger in the front than in the back. The car is just designed that way. If you care about performance, you pretty much have to leave it that way. The only thing you can do is to get RCE Camber Plates for the front, which drop the front a few mm. Drop it more than that, and things start to suffer.

To top it off, the Eibach Pro Kit springs are pretty much the maximum drop you can get away with. Even adding the RCE Camber Plates would be dicey with that much drop already.
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Old 05-20-2007, 07:24 PM   #10
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Heck i can go argue with the guy who is the vice president of a certain shop that stech arent the best if i wanted to thats kinda how i got them to begin with a couple years ago. The guy was telling me not to even install my ASD spring since stech where better.

Springs are something on my to do list sold new springs becuase i started to panic when i blew my motor, personally i think the stech suck for handling over the road everything can almost be felt. Their to bumpy for such a still spring.



oh well Kudos for the sticky ive chased a couple locals maybe more away from stechs.
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Old 05-21-2007, 12:54 PM   #11
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This was longer overdue! Good work John.

But is there any way to have this in all caps, bright red, boldface, and blinking in size 72 font at the top of the brakes + suspension forum? Because i think people are still gonna miss it.....


- Andrew
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Old 05-28-2007, 03:17 PM   #12
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Thanks for the Sticky, answers alot of questions. I've got S-Techs and I can attest to them being crap!!. I got them shortly after I got my Sti, loved the look, but the handeling was less than desirable. No matter what you do I.e. alignment, tire pressure Etc.. feel and confidence just isn't there. Doing my homework now for good setup before my struts go south. Thanks again
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Old 06-02-2007, 12:34 PM   #13
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My own personal saying on the S-Tech is that if springs were Gods, the S-Tech would be the Devil himself.
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Old 06-02-2007, 03:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackfeetVI View Post
My own personal saying on the S-Tech is that if springs were Gods, the S-Tech would be the Devil himself.
No, that's giving them too much credit! They'd be.... the little imp that scurries into the gas station to buy Satan a pack of cigs at 3am.
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:02 AM   #15
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So my question is how low is to low for the stock height. This is the only ricey part of my car. I love the look of a dumped car, but id rather have it handle better and not brake down the road.
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Old 07-08-2007, 01:00 PM   #16
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-1.5" from stock WRX height is the hard floor. -1" is better, -0.5" even better than that.

The big problem is that right about -1.5" you invert your control arms, which is the beginning of the end.
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:34 PM   #17
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haters
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprexaRS03 View Post
really smart guys
Fixed that for ya
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprexaRS03 View Post
haters
If hate you mean a crap product that should not be sold then you are dead on the mark.

If by hate you mean we just don't like them.... well, you got me there too.

I guess I am a hater of these.
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:58 PM   #20
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Don't hate the hater, hate the springs.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:10 PM   #21
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i have stechs on kyb agx's... my 2cents... car looks amazing... and car handles like ****!... switching to prodrives
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Old 07-23-2007, 06:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprexaRS03 View Post
haters
retards.
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:20 AM   #23
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Default Adding fuel to the fire

I'll throw in my 0.02. I'm not a expert on the sc00b frontier BUT I "do" know a little about cars. Anyone who knows anything about the Impreza knows it's origins - Rally Racing. Heck, just look at the pic on the front page of the site! Anyway, the car has a awesome power to weight ratio but it was NEVER intended as a pure road course type of vehicle. The majority of the more prominent races this car is sponsored in are on less-than-smooth surfaces so wheel travel is critical and that is what the car was designed for. Those fender gaps everyone complains about - yep it's for better wheel travel. So the issue is not whether you "can" lower the car but, rather, whether you "should" - the answer to that is obvious. If you want a car that looks good AND works well when slammed then buy a Honda or a sports car intended and designed for on-road operation only (have you seen anyone racing a Carerra in a Rally race???).

- e
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:09 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-llipsis View Post
(have you seen anyone racing a Carerra in a Rally race???).

- e
Well, the 911 and its descendants have won COUNTLESS rallies actually. Maybe Ferrari would've been a better choice here?
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-llipsis View Post
(have you seen anyone racing a Carerra in a Rally race???).
Yikes. You may want to check up on your history there, bud. Porsche ran a very successful rally program for quite a while.
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