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Old 05-21-2007, 07:49 PM   #1
mxboy15u
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Default Idea...wonder if anyone has tried it

I am a UTEC stage 4 car for my mods...

I am getting a water/alcohol system that I plan to run at a 50/50 mix. I have a strange idea that may or may not be a good idea...on lots of high performance turbo domestics they run no intercooler at all. Instead they use the injection as a chemical intercooler and call it a day. Figure my SSAC TMIC weighs 40-50 lbs...takes up all kinds of space, rattles and is generally unattractive I would love to lose it all together.

If running no intercooler is good enough for a 800whp drag car...why can't I do it?
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:25 PM   #2
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Because those 800-1billion WHP drag cars are turned on, run for 2 minutes, then are shut down.

Also, a lot of guys with aftermarket Turbo Kits (on NA Cars) use no Intercooler. Turbo Efficiency is greatly compromised. You have to run low boost.
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:31 PM   #3
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Yes I understand that, and the air charge would not be uncooled, it would be cooled from the injection. Can the injection cool the air enough to substitute for an intercooler altogether? My TMIC works so so, and when it heat soaks in the staging lanes it works like crap, could hot piping and using straight injection be any worse than that?
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:36 PM   #4
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Well, the Injection must be spraying all the time. The weight from all that water would negate any savings from removing the Air-Air IC.

If this is a drag car, you could get by with, say, a gallon of fluid, but anything else, I wouldnt.

I dont have anything to say about effectiveness though.
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:41 PM   #5
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You don't sound like you have anything to say about anything. All that weight? There are lots of injection cars on here...I really don't think the extra 20 lbs from the kit is killing anyone. And spraying all the time? Why would that be necessary at all? I would have the system set to spray at a set boost point. I am looking more for expert opinions on the cooling ability of injection.
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:57 PM   #6
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Those drag cars also have their motors torn down and rebuilt by a team of professional after each race, and if something breaks they have replacement parts...you dont have that I am assuming?
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:59 PM   #7
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Well some Grand National guys do it as well...thats really where I got the idea from.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxboy15u View Post
You don't sound like you have anything to say about anything. All that weight? There are lots of injection cars on here...I really don't think the extra 20 lbs from the kit is killing anyone. And spraying all the time? Why would that be necessary at all? I would have the system set to spray at a set boost point. I am looking more for expert opinions on the cooling ability of injection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mxboy15u View Post
Well some Grand National guys do it as well...thats really where I got the idea from.
Man, if there's ever been a case of having your mind made up before asking a question this is it.
Go ahead and do it, be a pioneer! (sorta) and report back with results.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:31 PM   #9
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I want to try something new for the Subie peeps, but if this idea spells insta engine destruction I really dont want to do it. I am more looking for the manufacturers perspective because they know the cooling capability of their kits and how they have worked intercoolerless on other types of cars...
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:28 PM   #10
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It could work but try to figure out how much fluid you would need for a 500 mile round trip?

Like other post, great for a drag car but thats all.
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:28 PM   #11
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Your SSAC TMIC weighs no where close to 50 lbs, what a bad idea. You will have nothing but problems and pre detination and bang.

1/8-1/4 mile cars only.
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:32 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by dibblejr View Post
Your SSAC TMIC weighs no where close to 50 lbs, what a bad idea. You will have nothing but problems and pre detination and bang.

1/8-1/4 mile cars only.
Are you speaking of experience? If so please let me in on the problems you encountered, or your personal measurements with the temperature decrease experienced from an injection setup. I have very little data to go by before I try it...any insight would be appreciated.
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Old 05-21-2007, 11:00 PM   #13
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I monitor my entire injection setup. I have never and will never run the car without any IC and with only alky, water or 50/50. I am not a straight liner, I do however have temp readings from my system.

EGT's 1624 w/0 injection of any kind 3rd gear top of pull WOT
EGT's 1382 w water only
EGT's 1420 w 50/50 alky h2O
EGT's 1488 w alky only

My alky bottle temp stays at 104 deg under the hood, well within safety range.

This is on 2.5sb, 272 cams, head port, headers, 3.5" TBE, LCP, OS Giken clutch system, lots of other mods to boot, Dynasty Auto TMIC, Perrin TI

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxboy15u View Post
Are you speaking of experience? If so please let me in on the problems you encountered, or your personal measurements with the temperature decrease experienced from an injection setup. I have very little data to go by before I try it...any insight would be appreciated.
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Old 05-22-2007, 12:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dibblejr View Post
EGT's 1624 w/0 injection of any kind 3rd gear top of pull WOT
EGT's 1382 w water only
EGT's 1420 w 50/50 alky h2O
EGT's 1488 w alky only

My alky bottle temp stays at 104 deg under the hood, well within safety range.
I'm not saying I agree with the no intercooler idea, but your information is meaningless with regards to the OPs question.

Your EGT temperatures are only show-casing the in-cylinder cooling benefits of your injection setup; you would need pre- and post- intercooler/WI nozzle temperatures to determine the intercooling efficiency of your setup.
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Old 05-22-2007, 06:18 AM   #15
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Yes, I am more concerned with intake temps. There are some people on here that log them. Though a 200 degree drop in EGT with your 50/50 mix is more than substantial...
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxboy15u View Post
Though a 200 degree drop in EGT with your 50/50 mix is more than substantial...
I definitely agree, but in the context of your question, it's meaningless. It tells you nothing about the intercooler setup. IMHO, I would use a WI/AI setup as a chemical intercooler only if I didn't have room to stuff in a physical IC (some NA cars).
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Old 05-22-2007, 12:10 PM   #17
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i had a similar thought ~2 years ago...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=796967

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Old 05-22-2007, 02:36 PM   #18
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^^ ahead of the game.

After reading the linked thread, I would probably recommend against pre-turbo WI.

While it might possibly help cool charge air coming out of the turbo (cooler in -> cooler out), IMHO it's real benefit increasing the compressor's efficiency, effectively moving you left on the map. I think you'd see the biggest benefit to intercooling between the compressor outlet and the TB.

Of course, this is just MHO
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Old 05-22-2007, 07:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dibblejr View Post
I monitor my entire injection setup. I have never and will never run the car without any IC and with only alky, water or 50/50. I am not a straight liner, I do however have temp readings from my system.

EGT's 1624 w/0 injection of any kind 3rd gear top of pull WOT
EGT's 1382 w water only
EGT's 1420 w 50/50 alky h2O
EGT's 1488 w alky only

My alky bottle temp stays at 104 deg under the hood, well within safety range.

This is on 2.5sb, 272 cams, head port, headers, 3.5" TBE, LCP, OS Giken clutch system, lots of other mods to boot, Dynasty Auto TMIC, Perrin TI

Jay-R

I'm suprised you say that as I respect a lot of the things you say but I'm very close to running no intercooler as well. As long as everything is monitered all should be fine. The only reason i keep my TMIC at this point is because it's a nice safety margin in case the system fails. When removed I see it as a great way in reducing lag as well. And the people saying that it requires a lot of extra weight, come on, with a turn on point of 2 psi you would hardly need a gallon for just the quater mile. someone prove me wrong here
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxboy15u View Post
Figure my SSAC TMIC weighs 40-50 lbs...
The TMIC would have to be made of solid aluminum to weigh 50lbs(which isn't really that far from the truth)....I would think maybe 25lbs at most....

I would never run w/o a IC....
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cr125r View Post
I'm suprised you say that as I respect a lot of the things you say but I'm very close to running no intercooler as well. As long as everything is monitered all should be fine. The only reason i keep my TMIC at this point is because it's a nice safety margin in case the system fails. When removed I see it as a great way in reducing lag as well. And the people saying that it requires a lot of extra weight, come on, with a turn on point of 2 psi you would hardly need a gallon for just the quater mile. someone prove me wrong here
So you have done this? You have removed the intercooler completely?
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:11 PM   #22
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Jay-R

Quote:
Originally Posted by cr125r View Post
I'm suprised you say that as I respect a lot of the things you say but I'm very close to running no intercooler as well. As long as everything is monitered all should be fine. The only reason i keep my TMIC at this point is because it's a nice safety margin in case the system fails. When removed I see it as a great way in reducing lag as well. And the people saying that it requires a lot of extra weight, come on, with a turn on point of 2 psi you would hardly need a gallon for just the quater mile. someone prove me wrong here
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:15 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by testes1010 View Post
The TMIC would have to be made of solid aluminum to weigh 50lbs(which isn't really that far from the truth)....I would think maybe 25lbs at most....

I would never run w/o a IC....
Maybe the TMIC is made of lead......
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:21 PM   #24
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Not mine, this is another members car... I had that pic in my favorites
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Old 05-23-2007, 06:53 AM   #25
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i know the builder/owner of that car pretty well online. in fact he and i had some discussions as he was assembling it wrt the feasabilty of running no ic and the pros/cons of running pre compressor adi injection.

something that cannot be overlooked in that setup is the fact that the main fuel for the car is methanol. in effect he's squirting an aggressive adi mixture from every fuel injector on the car. meth evaporates quickly and pulls a lot of heat from the charge as it does so. the results are not directly applicable to running gasoline or a gasoline blend as a main fuel.

ken
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