Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday February 28, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-22-2007, 03:41 PM   #1
chimchimm5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88501
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: NorCal
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Hatch
Dark Grey

Default Brake pads for lazy butts who street and track

Time is the thing I have least. Therefore I want to save time as much as possible. Saving $ comes a close second, but second.

GOALS:
- I need brake pads for my daily driving that are quiet, gentle, low dust, and comfy
- I need to swap in a 2nd set of pads when I go to the track day to prevent fading; and it must be able to safely get me to/from the track
- I want the minimum amount of work possible that still gets the job done
- for lazyness, I'll probably use the street pads for autox/rallyx since I don't believe fade is an issue there.

ISSUES:
1) after my track days, I've noticed that only my front pads have worn down to about 30%; pointing to the front weight nose front braking bias. But my rear look about 80% left! Both started out new at the same time. Do I really need track pads in the rear then? Is fade in the rear a big deal?

2) I'd like to use the same rotors for both street and track, and swap pads WITHOUT turning the rotors if possible. I read that "if the pads are the same compound, that's ok". Is it ok? What about sticking to the same brand?

3) Should I go (street/track): Hawk HPS / Carbotech X8, or Carbotech bobcats/X8, or....?

4) I read that our heavy cars are a bit much for the stock (front?) rotors. Are there signs BEFORE it cracks that a rotor is needing replacing? After my track days, I notice my front had discolored, like a seared iron look to it.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
chimchimm5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2007, 03:53 PM   #2
jamal
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Montana
Vehicle:
98 2.5GT
my wheels fit

Default

The reason for using rear track pads is that they have the same coefficient of friction properties as the front, which means your bias doesn't get all wonky. However it seems to be a good idea to use a less aggressive compound in the back so that they all get up to operating temperature. Since the fronts do more than 80% of the work they will wear faster either way.

When you put the track pads on, it will take off the deposits from the street pads and put on a new layer of pad material. See stoptech's article on bed in and rotor warping.

When you go back to the street pad those track pad deposits won't come off. I don't think that will be a problem.

For street pads, HPS, HP+, Bobcats, Ultimates etc are all good choices. Stoptech also has good information about most of these pads.

Track pads I don't know. I think the hawk and carbotech pads are both good.

Rotors will start to warp from the heat cycling before they crack. Unless you have holes. Basically the expansion of the rotor causes uneven wear and will taper them toward the outside under very extreme usage. You'll be able to tell when this happens by looking at the pads.
jamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2007, 03:58 PM   #3
RaceComp Engineering
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 54202
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Elkridge, Maryland
Vehicle:
ASK ABOUT NEW RCE
SWAY BARS FOR STI

Default

Ferodo 2500 front and rear for the street.

Swap in Ferodo 3000's for the front for the track.

No muss, no fuss. Enjoy.

- Andrew
RaceComp Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2007, 07:49 PM   #4
REX8
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 24038
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Godspeed Cale...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
The reason for using rear track pads is that they have the same coefficient of friction properties as the front, which means your bias doesn't get all wonky. However it seems to be a good idea to use a less aggressive compound in the back so that they all get up to operating temperature. Since the fronts do more than 80% of the work they will wear faster either way.

When you put the track pads on, it will take off the deposits from the street pads and put on a new layer of pad material. See stoptech's article on bed in and rotor warping.

When you go back to the street pad those track pad deposits won't come off. I don't think that will be a problem.

For street pads, HPS, HP+, Bobcats, Ultimates etc are all good choices. Stoptech also has good information about most of these pads.

Track pads I don't know. I think the hawk and carbotech pads are both good.

Rotors will start to warp from the heat cycling before they crack. Unless you have holes. Basically the expansion of the rotor causes uneven wear and will taper them toward the outside under very extreme usage. You'll be able to tell when this happens by looking at the pads.
Mine crack well before showing warping. In 2 good days you can see stress cracks. Thats pretty common on non-STi wrx's.
REX8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2007, 07:53 PM   #5
REX8
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 24038
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Godspeed Cale...
Default

Depending on how much you go, you can do a double duty rear pad.

The 2500, 3000 is nice. Pricey though. I've used Xp8's and HPS before. 8's became not enough fron tpad,s and the HPS would wear about 10% per day. Not horrible. Now I'm on Blues and HP+'s in the rear. The +'s are getting noisey for the street so I think I'll just use them to drive to the event on.

8's don't really kill rotors too badly when cold, so you can drive to the track on them.
REX8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2007, 08:53 PM   #6
PJC1909
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 50274
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Center City Philadelphia
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
invisible

Default

I am using panther plus on an H6 rear for street and track. For the fronts I change from Wilwood BP10 street compound to Polymatrix B for the track -- the beauty of fixed caliper TCE/Wilwood LBK. I am on R compounds now.

Last year when I was on streets and the stock caliper I used Panther plus at 4 corners. If you tried to put a track pad on the stock fronts, I think stuff would melt.

[OT]Rex8, we're moving to Philadelphia in a month.[/OT]
PJC1909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 06:29 PM   #7
chimchimm5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88501
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: NorCal
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Hatch
Dark Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
Depending on how much you go, you can do a double duty rear pad.

The 2500, 3000 is nice. Pricey though. I've used Xp8's and HPS before. 8's became not enough fron tpad,s and the HPS would wear about 10% per day. Not horrible. Now I'm on Blues and HP+'s in the rear. The +'s are getting noisey for the street so I think I'll just use them to drive to the event on.

8's don't really kill rotors too badly when cold, so you can drive to the track on them.
Ferodo's are pricey... I want to try something else first.

The XP8's are not good enough? The Carbotech website even says "not for cars over 2x00 lbs, definitely us.

How are the Hawk Blues working?

Any other recommends?
chimchimm5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 06:33 PM   #8
Yoo Shin
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87327
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Texas but TDY in North Alabama
Vehicle:
2010 12 parsec Evo X
I still kill threads

Default

Search "Porterfields". I think you'll find what you're looking for.
Yoo Shin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 06:38 PM   #9
mrbigisbudgood
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 54378
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte, NC
Vehicle:
2013 Mazdaspeed 3
Black

Default

I use HP+, they're noisy, embarrassing, don't grip well when cold, and produce tons of brake dust......but I'm not complaining.
mrbigisbudgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 09:38 PM   #10
BIGSKYWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7958
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:
09 GH B+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering View Post
Ferodo 2500 front and rear for the street.

Swap in Ferodo 3000's for the front for the track.

No muss, no fuss. Enjoy.

- Andrew
That's my formula as well- it is pricey however (but it does work )

Hawk street pads (HPS/HP+), replace w/ HT10's front????
BIGSKYWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 09:49 PM   #11
chimchimm5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88501
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: NorCal
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Hatch
Dark Grey

Default

How civil are the 2500 on the street (dust, noise, harshness, etc)?
chimchimm5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 10:15 PM   #12
bdi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 66033
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Dergo, CA
Vehicle:
05 STi

Default

I use the Ferrodo 2500 on the street and track (mainly auto-x)! Love'em but they do dust a good amount. And the dust is bronze in color...if you have bronze wheels then its not bad at all (I used to run a set of bronze rota torques). They are not harsh at all...of course since they are an aggressive pad they do need a little heat to really start to bite. They do squeal alittle aswell but what brakes dont! And they are street/track pads so if you can find some that dont make noise let me know.

I really dont think they are high in price aswell. Go look at the Pagid pads and you will see what pricey pads are. Search some of the vendors....you should be able to find a good deal. (These are the same pads that EVO's and 350Z's use so check their forums out for deals aswell)
bdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 10:34 PM   #13
BIGSKYWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7958
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:
09 GH B+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chimchimm5 View Post
How civil are the 2500 on the street (dust, noise, harshness, etc)?
here's my thoughts on the 2500's (and 3000's too )

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1196990

I think they are plenty civil for the street- I've been running them year round for 5-6 years
BIGSKYWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 11:10 PM   #14
MasterKwan
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 98961
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NOVA
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
Black

Default

I use Carbotech XP10's, street and track. They dust and are noisy but, don't hurt the rotors and have plenty of bite when cold. Best track pad there is (IMHO).
MasterKwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 09:15 AM   #15
REX8
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 24038
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Godspeed Cale...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
That's my formula as well- it is pricey however (but it does work )

Hawk street pads (HPS/HP+), replace w/ HT10's front????
The HT10's = good idea.

But if you're not saving $$$ over XP10's, I might go Carbotech, they seem to be a little easier on the rotors.

Op: The Blues are good. They hold up better than the 8's, but they are horrble on the rotors cold.


PJC: Good deal. You'll like the area. Perfect timing too. NJ Motorsports park "should" be open next spring/summer. Then we'll be 30 miles from a top-tier track!
REX8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 10:44 AM   #16
TCE
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 100868
Join Date: Nov 2005
Default

Anyone serious about track use is going to need to consider alternate pads.
There's simply no "one size fits all" pad that works well on both street and open track applications. It's always a compromise of wear, noise, dust, cost, and of course; torque.

There are some who manage to do well on middle ground pads like some mentioned above but HPS for example just won't cut if when your'e serious about open track use. On the other hand a guy running Polymatrix A on the street in a kit will note the iron dust all over the car in a matter of weeks. Not good.

My advise; have a plan.

Get pads for the proper use. Drag racers don't need track pads, nor do autocrossers. Those guys need high torque, low temp pads. A drving school event may also not require race pads. But if you're running two days at Watkins Glen with 4 thirty minute sessions....you may need to crank it up a bit.

Have a couple options. Going with the first set of pads to be the perfect set may not prove to be the answer either. Personally I prefer to 'under pad' a customer and let them grow into their needs (there's no way of really knowing what your customer is going to use on the phone) by finding out what did or did not work well for them. While it's easier to sell them race pads the call on Monday that the rotors are destroyed and the car caked in dust makes me the bad guy too.

Carry spares. Whoever goes to the track with one set of pads probably deserves the 'duh' award when they hit metal. Sure pads are not cheap but if you have to drive it home at least the track pads would work. Besides; you do carry the street pads with you for that trip home anyhow right?

Swap in a timely manner.
If you plan to run on Sat don't put the track pads in on Wed. If you cannot do it at the track then Fri evening will allow ample time to seat the pads on the way to the track. Personally I'd suggest at the track on Sat morning. Forget all that hub-bub about x miles of bedding etc etc. Any good track pad will bed in within a matter of two or three laps.

Flip the pads. Some calipers offer differential bores, others don't. Regardless of this if the pad shows some taper wear flip them over, swap them around or whatever it takes to both maximise wear and counter the taper. This keeps the pistons more true to the bores and prevents binding thus ensuring a firm pedal and good release.

Own pad wear spacers. Everyone wants the most out of the $125 set of pads. But the more you push out the pistons the less compliant the caliper becomes. Put some wear plates behind the pads when you can. Ti, alum, steel, old plates...life will be much better.

How little is too little?
So you have two sessions to go and 20% pad left. What's the wear rate? Can you make it? When pads are less than 20% you'd do well to consider replacing them. Not only running risk of metal to metal on that flyer lap but less pad means more heat to the caliper body. Nothing good comes of this. Keep track of your wear rates. Yea, buy a tool to measure this if you need to.

Blow off the dust. For track pads compressed air is your friend. NOT water. You wet that stuff down and it's cake. Blow it, wipe it, then maybe some water. Also seen a good dose of WD40 on wheels prior to running go a long way to keeping things nice. Sure it sticks the dust, but wipes off.

Don't expect your first choice to be your last. Pad selection is an art. Picking one based on a supplier or your buddys use may not be for you. Different styles, car weights, speeds, and tracks can exploit pros and cons of various pads. Expect to try a couple compounds before you find one that suites YOUR needs best. Test options, who knows; you might find some time too.

Hope that offers up some experience.
TCE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 10:59 AM   #17
BIGSKYWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7958
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:
09 GH B+

Default

^ very good advice!

I have to admit I erred on the "how little is too little" before- I ran a set down to a mm or two- I got lucky, had a spare set and should have replaced them before that session.

BIGSKYWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 12:20 PM   #18
MasterKwan
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 98961
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NOVA
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
Black

Default

I almost didn't get to run Monday because they said my rear pads were too low during tech inspection. At the end of the whole day, they were still at about the same level. My rears don't wear at all.

Had a guy down at VIR in a vette run right off the end of the main straight because he ran his pads down to the backing plates.
MasterKwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 01:11 PM   #19
romanlynch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 126684
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lima, OH
Vehicle:
02 wrx
PLATINUM silver baby

Default

ive used Hawk hps front and rear at VIR this past Nov. and i did notice that after the first lap or 2 if i tried to get into turn 1 to fast i had a lot of brake fade. on the other have my dad was driving a Audi A6 with HP+'s front and rear and he had a lot of brake fade as well, but that A6 is like 4000lbs... ill prolly try the HP+'s when i need pads again
romanlynch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 01:48 PM   #20
MasterKwan
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 98961
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NOVA
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
Black

Default

Take my word for it, HP+ is a fine street pad but, worthless on track. The faster you go, as you get more experienced, the weaker they'll be. I ruined a track day because I tried the HP+. They faded out in two laps and I had to drive like a puss the rest of the time I was out there.

Most people only really need a good front pad. The rears just don't do that much because under braking, all the weight shift forwards over the front wheels. I run crap pads in the back. They last forever too.
MasterKwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 02:04 PM   #21
chimchimm5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88501
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: NorCal
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Hatch
Dark Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
Most people only really need a good front pad. The rears just don't do that much because under braking, all the weight shift forwards over the front wheels. I run crap pads in the back. They last forever too.
Doesn't this screw up your braking bias and make the front tires work more than intended, thus reducing your overall braking performance?

On my previous car (an econobox) I had +1 the front disk pads. But since my rears were drums, I couldn't do anything. Suddenly, my front would activate ABS all the time, it "bit" earlier, but stopping seemed to be worse.

Although the rears may not be doing much, the change in bias will make them work even less. While that will make the rears last forever, you move that work over to the front which means faster wear and less braking performance.

Or am I crazy?
chimchimm5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 02:34 PM   #22
chimchimm5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88501
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: NorCal
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Hatch
Dark Grey

Default

At this point, I think I'm going with either:

1) carbotech bobcats for street and XP8 or XP10s for the track
2) save up for ferodo 2500 for street and 3000 for the track

Some more info that I think makes a difference:
- I'm on a stock suspension
- I'm not going to run a tire stickier than a Bridgestone RE01R or a Goodyear F1GSD3
- and no wider than 225

With this in mind, are the XP8's good enough for me or should I go XP10?
Are the 3000's a bit more than I need but 2500 not quite enough?
chimchimm5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 03:37 PM   #23
MasterKwan
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 98961
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NOVA
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
Black

Default

I've run the XP10's at the track with both RA1's and Azenis RT615's. On the street tires, I don't get them up to full temp because the tire has so much lower braking limit than the RA1's. Even then, the braking is progressive and not grabby. The only downside of not reaching full temp is I get some deposits on the rotor that wear off a couple days later. On the RA1's, the braking practically pulls my eyeballs out they get up too full temp and the rotors stay shiny and clean the whole time.

I've never had fade on the XP10's. When they get too hot, you get accelerated wear but, they still grab. That's when you know you have to add some ducting.

I'm sure the other pads are good too but, I've had really good luck with the XP10's for the past 2 years. On a car the weight of the WRX, I'd get the 10's over the XP8's. The brakes are comparatively small and the car's pretty heavy.

I never have really understood the whole bias discussion. On the track, while limit braking the rear wheels don't have much weight on them so, the can't contribute that much to braking. To me, there's a bias problem if one side locks up before the other. On a non-abs car, having too aggressive of a rear pad will cause you to spin under braking. If you're on the track and you rear abs engages before the front, then I'd say you have a bias problem and probably want a less aggressive pad out back.
MasterKwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 03:53 PM   #24
strohausii
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 26770
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Tampa
Vehicle:
'02 WRX
midnight black

Default

adding some options:
Looks like Carbotecheng is now ctbrakes .com , they have another pad the AX6.

From the MachV website:
"...AX6 (formerly known as Panther Plus) is a street/track compound, good for track day and autocross use but also acceptable for everyday duty. Very high fade resistance and consistent performance over a wide 250 F to 1250 F temperature range. Great for track day use on street or R-compound tires -- you can drive to and from the track using these pads, and run all day at the track, without having to change pads. These will have higher noise and dust levels than street pads, though....."

Did Carbotech get bought out, or change management? Their webpage is different, and redirects to the ctbrakes. The claims of a street/ track pad seems suspicious.

The whole Carbotech line up explained:
http://www.therpmstore.com/carbotech/

Last edited by strohausii; 05-25-2007 at 04:01 PM. Reason: not so new pad, just renamed...
strohausii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 04:46 PM   #25
MasterKwan
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 98961
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NOVA
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
Black

Default

Something happened recently. One of the guys I used to deal with got booted out in this change. I don't actually know. As long as the pads stay the same I'm not too concerned.
MasterKwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Article: How to Choose Street and Track Brake Pads J Ritt Brakes, Steering & Suspension 87 04-16-2014 04:35 AM
Endless Brake parts for Street and Track dentsport NESIC Vendor Classifieds 4 04-11-2009 01:52 PM
who makes brake pads for... both 05 lgt front brakes/rs (h6 upgrade) rears? legacy2003 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 5 12-27-2005 02:48 PM
2002 wrx brake pads for street/track that still work in winter Impreza01 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 28 11-13-2005 10:46 PM
Brake pads for street/occasional track use quelegal Brakes, Steering & Suspension 6 05-04-2005 12:55 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.