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Old 05-29-2007, 07:07 PM   #1
Impreza01
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Default Cheating at autocross

I'm just curious about how often do people see cheating occurring at autocross. At one of the local autocrosses this month, I saw blatant cheating such as ESP cars in STX, STX/STU cars in DS and etc. While it shouldn't really matter in the overall picture as it wasn't for points for ProSolo or there wasn't prize money (unless you count the $5 plaque/trinket trophy), it does ruin the spirit of the sport.
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:12 PM   #2
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How about bringing it to the organizers attention?

You hear all the time 'at local events, it doesn't matter anyways.' right?

Well, your post is the exact reason why some regions are stricter than others.



--kC
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:26 PM   #3
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Don't worry, I'm sure the Auto-X Rule Weenies will report them.
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
How about bringing it to the organizers attention?

You hear all the time 'at local events, it doesn't matter anyways.' right?

Well, your post is the exact reason why some regions are stricter than others.



--kC
Mmm, explain your experiences please. Your 2nd line was kinda vague.

I would have brought it to the organizers' attention, but I soundly beat the cheaters in my class, so I didn't care. But for the other classes, I pitied them. If points or prize money was involved, I'd definitely would have brought it up.

Oh yeah, and my original post wasn't a complaint. Just curious about how often it occurs.
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:47 PM   #5
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At a local level you've got a whole gaggle of different types. Most people who are in the wrong class don't actually realize they are mis-classed. This is sometimes because they were told incorrectly at registration what class they should be in (often because the "Are you stock?" question seems to be a tough one for the average ricer). Sometimes people know they aren't elligible for the class and run there with an understanding with their competitors that they are all just running for fun and they want some competition. And rarely, at least in most regions, you've got someone who knows they are illegal, has been asked to run the appropriate class, and runs the wrong class anyways because they are an ass. If you've got a problem with it bring it to the attention of those who are running the event, mentioning it here does nothing at all, especially when we don't even know what region you ran with.

As an event organizer I always make it a point to talk to the people who I can recognize are in the wrong class to ask that they either OK it with all of their competitors or change their class for the next event. Usually this isn't a problem, people honestly didn't know, but occasionally I get some argument. Argue with me enough and you don't get to come back, we won't miss you. Many regions won't have someone official do that though unless there is a complaint, it's officially up to the competitors to police their classes.
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:57 PM   #6
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Ah, so it's mostly just the first-timers/n00bs/ricers who take a liberal definition of the word "stock" as oppose to the SCCA definition. That explains the ST cars in stock classes, but not the SP cars in ST or stock classes. I guess that'd fit your "ass" definition though.
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Old 05-29-2007, 08:00 PM   #7
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I will go on record here saying...that cheaters...will get it in the end...
Locally it makes no difference...really...unless the 'cheater' is running for points in a class..is knowingly doing just to win a class...then that is wrong...IMO..Bad habits start at local level..and progresses to the top levels...

to me, its like a kid..who hasn't had correct parenting...then when its time..the kid has an attitude and nothing you say or do will change that...

Its the same thing...then when that person gets caught doing something...at a local level..it should be nipped in bud right then and there...not just let him slide...

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Old 05-29-2007, 08:04 PM   #8
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I've been cheating all year!!! I didn't know it due to running a car I didn't build. It had an ALK on it and I have been running in SM at every event, simply because I was told it was an SM car.
In any case, I agree with others who have posted that some newbies don't really know the sport, nor their mods list enough to get in the right class. Also, it could be noted that during tech some mods might come up and then changes could be made.

I would also like to point out that maybe you or those who spot the person at fault can bring it up to that offenders attention and "educate" them to what class is correct for them and help them grow in the sport. Scolding someone for being in the wrong class or accusations of "cheating" can rub someone the wrong way. If the approach taken is to provide knowledge then not only does the sport grow, but the you just might make another friend.

Just some random thoughts as I read through the post. I would like to add that I've since removed the ALK and added the interior per SM rules...
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Old 05-29-2007, 08:10 PM   #9
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I didn't know what class to go into. I just ran an autocross for the hell of it. Based on the stock class for my car I thought I was supposed to be in ESP, but I guess that is wrong. Too confusing. Hopefully I didn't screw anybody too bad because I won my class.
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Old 05-29-2007, 08:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacobeagle View Post
I would also like to point out that maybe you or those who spot the person at fault can bring it up to that offenders attention and "educate" them to what class is correct for them and help them grow in the sport. Scolding someone for being in the wrong class or accusations of "cheating" can rub someone the wrong way. If the approach taken is to provide knowledge then not only does the sport grow, but the you just might make another friend.
Trust me, I tried to tell someone about the rules, and the person became irate. I think the driver was just mad that his STU car got beat by pretty much the entire DS class.
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Old 05-29-2007, 08:13 PM   #11
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Misclassed cars all start with Novice. A lot of novice just register for stock, stx sts etc because there novice and no one cares, then once they get out of novice they keep there car classed wrong. In my region there isn't a whole lot of competition, the local guys own pretty much each class, so even missed class cars don't win. I don't know how I would react if someone was beating me and I knew they were not supposed to be in my class.
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Old 05-29-2007, 08:22 PM   #12
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At the local level, I much sooner just approach the owner of the car and discuss the matter with him or her. Let them know the rules in case they aren't aware.

9 times out of 10, this seems to solve the problem.
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Old 05-29-2007, 08:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impreza01 View Post
Trust me, I tried to tell someone about the rules, and the person became irate. I think the driver was just mad that his STU car got beat by pretty much the entire DS class.

Sometimes it also depends on how you bring it up to them as well. Some people come off very harsh and can bring out a defensive attitude in many people. I have brought it up to many people when doing tech, chairing a event or just in grid about their car and where it belongs. Only once has someone not been understanding and kinda shrugged it off. Once some real competitors came to run in this class (SS - Z06 had no passenger seat, intake, aftermarket rotors) he entered his correct class.

Had a 05 S2K in my stock class last event. Had stock wheels, hoosiers and carbon fiber hood, trunk, sideview mirrors and he could not believe those things took him out. I did not care about it for this event as I knew he had no chance, but advised him for future ones.
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Old 05-29-2007, 08:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rankink View Post
Sometimes it also depends on how you bring it up to them as well. Some people come off very harsh and can bring out a defensive attitude in many people. I have brought it up to many people when doing tech, chairing a event or just in grid about their car and where it belongs. Only once has someone not been understanding and kinda shrugged it off. Once some real competitors came to run in this class (SS - Z06 had no passenger seat, intake, aftermarket rotors) he entered his correct class.

Had a 05 S2K in my stock class last event. Had stock wheels, hoosiers and carbon fiber hood, trunk, sideview mirrors and he could not believe those things took him out. I did not care about it for this event as I knew he had no chance, but advised him for future ones.
ding.....winner
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:49 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Scooby South View Post
ding.....winner
Agreed. I've brought it up to people before and they are generally accepting.

Actually I want to get one of those t-shirts that says "Go ahead and cheat, it's not going to help you at this point anyway."

DM
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
How about bringing it to the organizers attention?

You hear all the time 'at local events, it doesn't matter anyways.' right?

Well, your post is the exact reason why some regions are stricter than others.

--kC
I hate hearing this. I hear it as much from Noobs to people who really do know better as from more experienced people. I'd say I see it about 1 out of 3 events, and I probably miss it more than I catch it.

I run XP in a very much under prepared car due to weight restriction changes in the class I used to run. I don't complain, I'm just there to have fun. I have further modded my car to be slightly better prepped in XP, but am still way behind the top guys in SM. I still run XP because that's where my car belongs.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:39 AM   #17
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In our region, its up to the competitors to police others in their class. If I see someone that is running in the wrong class I'll usually point it out to them. However, I'm not actively looking for cars that are incorrectly classed.

I'd say 95% of the "cheaters" at our local events are noobs that don't know they are classed wrong. Usually if we tell them then they're like "Oh, I didn't know" and they run the correct class at the next event.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:54 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by speedyHAM View Post
I hate hearing this. I hear it as much from Noobs to people who really do know better as from more experienced people. I'd say I see it about 1 out of 3 events, and I probably miss it more than I catch it.
I get ripped a new one on various forums when I have tried telling people that they should run in the correct class... I just gave up. It's not hard.. if you're just in it for the fun of it, it shouldn't matter what class you're in. Run the right one because when you run the wrong one, you're taking away the fun from someone that IS legal per the rules.

--kC
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:12 AM   #19
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Sometimes people run the wrong class because what they view to be bling mods (ie big wheels, CF hood/trunk, etc) are viewed as peformance enhancing mods by the SCCA. The rules themselves can also be confusing when you try to read through them.

Just to clarify, the new rules allow changes to boost via the AP for ESP when it says that mechancial or electrical boost control systems for turbo charged engines may be altered and the resulting boost changes are allowed....correct?
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:28 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rankink View Post
Had a 05 S2K in my stock class last event. Had stock wheels, hoosiers and carbon fiber hood, trunk, sideview mirrors and he could not believe those things took him out. I did not care about it for this event as I knew he had no chance, but advised him for future ones.
Was it silver? I had the same thing happen in BSP last year locally, I laid the smack down and it's not worth my time while trying to help run an event to police him. If he beat me and the car was illegal I'd rather just dish out the $20-$30 protest fee, and then they get the point when they get DQ'd or moved in the results to the appropriate class.

On another note I finally got in the limited wing, there is a part number that is un-painted for anyone interested and it comes with the 3rd brake light housing, sweet, painted it flat black. I will try to post the PN tonight in the "limited spoiler in BSP" thread..

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Old 05-30-2007, 09:38 AM   #21
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I work tech fairly regularly for our region and I've noticed that nearly 100% of the time it's simply a case of people being new to the sport and not understanding how the rules work. For the most part I just visit with them a little and give them a quick explanation of which mod they did puts them in whatever class and they're cool with it.

However, being on the small end of a medium region like we are, most of us are willing to allow slight allowances on the rules in certain circumstances just to get other people in our class to run against. I'm usually about the only one in STX, so for example, I'll tech a BMW 3 series with 8.5" wheels, tell him which class he's SUPPOSED to be in but that I don't mind him running locally in STX.

Now the thing that gets me is, last weekend I ran down in another region that typically has a decent sized STX class that has been won by the same 240SX all this year and most of last year. First thing I see when I get down there is the CF hood on the thing. I would think that one of the other regular competitors would have said something about by now. Didn't bother me any, even driving like crap I ended up finishing 2 seconds ahead of anyone else in the class (well, only 1 second over my co driver). Oh well, I guess everone down there wants to let him run in STX it's their perogative...

Last edited by Aaron B; 05-30-2007 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:10 AM   #22
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I would agree that most of the time its a novice driver that doesn't fully understand classing. Those same folks are pretty receptive to change when its brought up properly.
The question is, how many people knowingly cheat?

You also have folks who are hyper-concerned about the rules. I know I tend to look into the rules before I buy a certain part for my car. On top of that compulsive disorder...I have to worry about the rules for 3 different organizations. My club has its own autocross rules. I still concern myself with scca rules(of which I might attend 3 events that use those rules). Then there are the hillclimb rules(which I haven't run since the mini broke).

I know I'd feel like an ass if I realized I was misclassed. I was surprised to find I was misclassed last fall on some reported results(in D-stock, not stx) despite filling out my registration as STX(granted i'm not fully prepped to take advantage of stx). It ultimately would have dropped my one spot. I would have flip flopped with another competitor. I emailed the event chair, as I didn't want to affect anyone's points, seeing as how I was a guest with that club. The results were never changed.

I just find it kind of sad that some folks would intentionally cheat.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:19 PM   #23
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i am not SM legal but i don't win so it not an issue
(severely under weight with crossmember change)
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:56 PM   #24
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I debadged my trunk, which throws me out of ESP.


Back on topic, Mechie3, boost is open in ESP. A tune that changes it of a MBC or EBC is just fine.
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:14 PM   #25
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I debadged my trunk, which throws me out of ESP.


Back on topic, Mechie3, boost is open in ESP. A tune that changes it of a MBC or EBC is just fine.


Glue some magnets onto your SUBARU badges and throw them on the car if it bothers you that much. That is what I did in case of a weeny protest.
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