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View Poll Results: How much money would you be willing to donate for testing?
$10 6 40.00%
$20 3 20.00%
$30 1 6.67%
$40 0 0%
$50 1 6.67%
$100 1 6.67%
$500 0 0%
$1000 3 20.00%
I can also donate parts. 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-31-2007, 08:25 AM   #1
StiLimited
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Default Would you be willing to donate for testing of the WRX MT?

I'm starting this new thread because the original lost its focus and I learned a few things from that thread to do a better job.

So here is the question:

Would you be willing to donate money for the testing of the WRX 5 speed manual transmission to see if there is an inherent problem in either the design, or parts or whatever it might be, that might cause early failure on a stock or very mildly modified WRX.

If so, just reply with a yes and how much you would be willing to kick in.
Also vote in the poll so it'll be easier to keep track of the amount.

Also, if you have parts that you could donate, please list what you would be willing to donate. (you will not get your parts back in the same condition you sent them, or you may not get them back at all.)

NO DEBATE on what the problem might be, just a yes or no and how much you would if a yes.

If there are enough people saying yes and enough money is pledged, then I (or a group of members) will find a suitable person/company to do the testing and then we'll appoint a treasurer (not me) to collect the money and send the parts and money for testing.

The original thread is here if you want to read it.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1261098
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Old 05-31-2007, 08:33 AM   #2
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Last edited by StiLimited; 06-02-2007 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:10 AM   #3
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I guess I'm missing the part of the poll that allows me to vote no.
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Old 05-31-2007, 10:14 AM   #4
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By using a organizer that has publically stated their belief that it's manufacturing defects that are causing the problem ,the results will be viewed by those with the problem as tainted. It has nothing to do with you personally. It has to do with providing data that is beyond question.

I'm not giving you money to do the test. I would recommend someone other than you handle that issue.
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:12 AM   #5
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The guy doesn't even drive a 5mt car... Everybody has an opinion. A good researcher knows how to look at evidence and change that opinion if applicable.

I'm going to operate on the assumption that the point is to have the testing done by a qualifed and impartial third party. I still think the services of LyveWRX would be useful here if he's willing... I don't think he would perform an unfair test. Just somehow have to keep the pride and argument out of the picture if we get anybody on nasioc to do the testing.

I would like to know where the parts will be tested and what tests will be carried out. Once that info is given... I'm willing to pitch in $20. And if I can afford it after this paycheck, actually buy a brand new drive or driven gear for materials analysis if nobody has one they're willing to donate. I would give my broken second gear, but I don't have the gear, only a couple of broken gear teeth which I don't think will be an adequate sample.
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Old 05-31-2007, 01:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivin blind View Post
I guess I'm missing the part of the poll that allows me to vote no.
By not participating in the poll you are voting no. Thank you.
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:52 AM   #7
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If you are serious about wanting to collect money you should outline what you want to test, and how the results of the testing will be published.

Makes no sense to donate money for a project like this without better definition.
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Old 06-01-2007, 11:44 AM   #8
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Right, I understand.

Okay... well what happened (and I'm breaking my own rule here) is the other thread got clogged up with personal opinions about whether there is really anything wrong with the 5MT and it's driver abuse and on and on an on...

you can read it all here

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1261098

it's long and sometimes off track...

So I thought it would be a good idea to start a new thread.

Testing? One thing is LyveWRX wants to test the metal of the gears and compare them to others. I, and other members, think testing of the entire transmission, mainly for shaft and/or case flex is something to investigate.

The main thing in this thread is just to see if there is enough people and enough money to pursue this. Most people on the other thread don't like me, so I'm staying OUT of the money part. I will not accept the roll of treasury. I'm only trying to get the ball rolling.

And I'll probably recuse myself from selecting the testing company/individual for the same reasons...

I just say, it'll be a reputable testing lab and it'll test as much as the money pledged will pay for.

Also, at this point, I'm just asking for pledges. In other words, how many people are interested in this sort of thing and if so, how much would they be able to chip in.

So far, we are up to just over $1100. If that's all we get, then those people who are willing to put up the money can discuss where they'd like it done and by whom, etc. If we get $10K, again, those who are putting up the money will get their say for what gets tested and by whom, etc.

So, does that explain it well enough? If not, yell at me some more.
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:24 PM   #9
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I don't know....I say that because I don't know how much this whoe thing is going to cost.
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Old 06-01-2007, 11:26 PM   #10
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i think that a much better idea would be for you and a couple of private investors to put up the money for testing and figure out a 1000-2000 dollar solution for the 300-350wtq wrx. then you will make ur money back plus some over night.
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Old 06-01-2007, 11:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StiLimited View Post
So far, we are up to just over $1100. If that's all we get, then those people who are willing to put up the money can discuss where they'd like it done and by whom, etc. If we get $10K, again, those who are putting up the money will get their say for what gets tested and by whom, etc.

So, does that explain it well enough? If not, yell at me some more.
I'm giving you my Nasioc experience here - ask for everyone's opinion on who and where, and you'll get a different opinion from everyone. That discussion will very rapidly degrade into what happened in the last thread.

If you want a full analysis to take place which included gears, shaft flex, and case flex, in one go then YOU need to start getting quotes from places that do this. One thing I think you will find is that it will not be cheap. Before anyone is going to throw real money at this some things need to be established:

1) What exactly will be tested.
2) How exactly it will be tested.
3) The experience of the tester, and what they have done to show they are qualifed to do something such as case flex study and FEA of the stressed portions. (The who portion).
4) Who is going to translate the data. You're going to end up with a lot of pics, numbers, and values. Without someone to translate what those mean the only thing the common guy is going to understand is the bill.
5) Will it be tested as a whole system or as individual parts?

Believe me, I'm not trying to throw you off track here, but point you in a direction to move this forward.
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Old 06-02-2007, 01:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
If you want a full analysis to take place which included gears, shaft flex, and case flex, in one go then YOU need to start getting quotes from places that do this. One thing I think you will find is that it will not be cheap. Before anyone is going to throw real money at this some things need to be established:
for a complete analysis like that, it will be very, very, very not cheap!
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Old 06-02-2007, 05:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
I'm giving you my Nasioc experience here - ask for everyone's opinion on who and where, and you'll get a different opinion from everyone. That discussion will very rapidly degrade into what happened in the last thread.
No doubt about that!

Quote:
Believe me, I'm not trying to throw you off track here, but point you in a direction to move this forward.
I agree with everything you said. I"m also beginning to believe this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Love Boobies
i think that a much better idea would be for you and a couple of private investors to put up the money for testing and figure out a 1000-2000 dollar solution for the 300-350wtq wrx. then you will make ur money back plus some over night.
I am beginning to agree with you. I should have known better than trying to use a philanthropic approach. Capitialism is the best solution...

Just my nature I guess. :shaking head:
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Old 06-02-2007, 05:56 PM   #14
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ya i think that will be the fastest and easiest way for you to do it, plus there is a very big market for a gear set in that power range. i find it ridiculous being a 06 stage 2 owner with 18s being afraid every time i shift into 3rd. i find it even more ridiculous that the only solution is gonna be a 6g ppg box.

so find a 1g-2g solution for the 350wtq wrx please, and quickly.
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Old 06-03-2007, 09:20 AM   #15
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It's a fantasy to expect the factory to build a transmission that will survive modded engines. That's a fact of life. They don't owe you a tranny that'll last behind a big motor. If you can prove that the stock tranny behind a stock motor's got reliability problems then you might have something.

There seems to already be pretty extensive real world knowledge of how much power one of these tranny's can take before it explodes so, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

Seems to me that the solution's already here. PPG or KAAZ gears. That they're expensive is kind of besides the point. You have to pay to play.
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Old 06-03-2007, 10:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
It's a fantasy to expect the factory to build a transmission that will survive modded engines. That's a fact of life. They don't owe you a tranny that'll last behind a big motor. If you can prove that the stock tranny behind a stock motor's got reliability problems then you might have something.
I agree, the key is finding when the factory tranny dies on a stock or only very lightly modded WRX (CAI, TBE, but factory turbo, IC, injectors, etc.)

Quote:
There seems to already be pretty extensive real world knowledge of how much power one of these tranny's can take before it explodes so, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.
I only have one reliable data point: Dave Buscher's WRX. Basically he doubled the factory torque and the trans died at 2400 miles. If you know of more, please pass the info my way, I'd be very interested in reading it.

Quote:
Seems to me that the solution's already here. PPG or KAAZ gears. That they're expensive is kind of besides the point. You have to pay to play.
Sure enough. If someone changes the Turbo and injectors ,etc. then yes, they are being silly to think the factory trans will hold up. I'm more interested in finding the life expectancy of a mildly modded car with the factory trans.
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Old 06-03-2007, 02:34 PM   #17
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There are tons of reliable accounts of transmission throwing in the towel in the transmission forum.
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Old 06-03-2007, 07:57 PM   #18
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Ok, the point of this thread is not to prove subaru built transmissions that were weak, or can't hold anythign above stock power levels. Its to find what can be done to fix the problem with spending the least amount of money. Hell if its something as stupid as shaft flex. Someone makes it stronger, and stock gearsets decide to hold 250whp, say due to the gears meeting flush now. It would definatley be alot cheaper to change that as opposed to buying $3500 gearsets...
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Old 06-04-2007, 08:49 AM   #19
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get Bushur racing involve
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:08 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
It's a fantasy to expect the factory to build a transmission that will survive modded engines. That's a fact of life. They don't owe you a tranny that'll last behind a big motor. If you can prove that the stock tranny behind a stock motor's got reliability problems then you might have something.

There seems to already be pretty extensive real world knowledge of how much power one of these tranny's can take before it explodes so, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

Seems to me that the solution's already here. PPG or KAAZ gears. That they're expensive is kind of besides the point. You have to pay to play.
I disagree. They Tremec T-56 will stand up to 500 Plus HP at the Wheels for around 2000 dollars. Yes it is a 2 wheel drive tranny but for around the same price you don't think they can come up with a 350 hp AWD tranny? The PPG or Kaaz gearset doesn't cost 6 grand to produce even with the installation and research, it is simple supply and demand. They have the market monoply on AWD high HP trannys and can charge what they want. Personally, I don't think this individual is seeking your approval or opinions on the testing.. merely if anyone wishes to donate to his cause. If you do not.. then move on to another thread instead of taking this one off topic.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:41 AM   #21
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Considering the T-56 is in GM, Ford, Aston Martin, and Holden(technically GM) products, the market is vastly different. Include the mechanical differences, and I don't think it's safe to compare them directly.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:51 PM   #22
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all hes saying is that were getting raped. If I built a time machine and I was the only one who knew how it worked and how to make them, I could charge any amount of money for them. If someone bought one of my time machines and could replicate it, but charged half of what I did, they would outsell me and have a way better price... In other words, someone make a gearset like PPGs but for a cheap price and you would be friggin rich..
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:57 PM   #23
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You can't say that we are getting "raped", just because a much different product is cheaper than ours. There is a vastly smaller market to share the distribution, R&D, marketing, etc costs. The layout of a WRX transmission (probably)requires additional compromises for the space of two differentials. Previously, the applications were often very different, so what made a good WRX product was more than likely for rally-like applications where raw HP isn't the limiting component. People have been racing GM and Ford products since long before Subaru was a product in the states, so there is much less risk to a developer.

There are several companies that make replacement gearesets, all of which range in price from to . If all it took was lowering the price, to make a fist full of cash, you would think at least one of them would have done it.
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