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Old 06-08-2007, 10:49 AM   #1
johndingk2
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Question Dccd Faq

Just bought an 04 STI and want to really get the idea of good use of this feature as the manual doesn't totally go into it from an operator's point of view.

By the way, I really am soooo happy with my new baby. The 2nd most beautiful thing I have ever had my arms around, right Kelly...in case you are reading..

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Old 06-08-2007, 01:09 PM   #2
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Keep it in auto is the best advice I can give you. The DCCD is mapped by a fancy computer to do all the work for you. Taking it off road or in the ice? Start playing with the thumbwheel and see which position best suits YOU as what I like has no bearing on what you like. DO NOT mess with it under other circumstances as the computer is WAY smarter than you.
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:27 PM   #3
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grats with your new purchase

as unabomber stated, its personal pref...

from my experiences living in California, we have big bear mountain which has up to 1.5ft of snow at times, i find more confidence in lock than i do in auto, in auto i hear distinct corners loose traction and in auto i feel more secure as u can hear the tires over grip if u will, it sounds and feels completely different from loosing traction.

also, with my current stock suspension, in autocross i feel the car tends to understeer a lot, that usually means im coming in too hot, but i can take an evo for example at the same speed and i do not feel as much understeer, this is again personal pref, but because i drive this way, i put full rear or 2nd click to full rear. you can counter under/oversteer with the dccd when used correctly.

lastly, if for some reason you ever feel compulsive enough to attempt doing donuts in the safest locations such as abandoned airfields, large parking lots with no bystanders for 100 feet to say the least...it can be done by intering a turn greater than 40mph in full rear and slightly pulling the e brake then gas hard =) or so ive been told, ive honestly never done it to my 07 baby, i have in previous models tho "lol:
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:49 PM   #4
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Default Thanks for the words...

I appreciate the info but it doesn't quite tell me how it works. Do you have a suggestion for an info search. I tried DCCD and Driverís Control Center Differential and found nothing worth while.

Unabomber, do you have a write up on the feature?

If not, suggestions anyone?
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:50 PM   #5
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Oh yea, thanks for the 'grats.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:09 PM   #6
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here are some of the posts I and another guru have made on the topic in the past:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
OK i'm going to say this once and only once:

DCCD varies the slip limiting, which in turn varies the amount of torque that can be redistributed via the center diff. The native torque bias of the planetary gearset in the diff is 35f/65r (04 and 05) and 41f/59r (06+), and the only time you can really be sure exactly what the torque bias is would be when the DCCD is set to full OPEN, meaning no slip limiting and no torque transfer (note: the 06+ has an additional mechanical LSD in the center diff that cannot be turned off).

Dialing in more DCCD lock does not direectly 'vary' the torque bias. What it does is prevent the front and rear from going different speeds and if there IS a speed difference, torque is transferred through the slip plates to the slow side to bring it up to the same speed as the faster side. The amount of torque transferred is dependent on two things:
-the difference in traction(and speed) between front and rear
-the amount of lock dialed in with the DCCD dial (or the amount commanded by the automatic mode).

It is possible, under extreme conditions to have all the torque transferred to the front or the rear, but this does NOT mean what most might take it as. It means that if one side of the car has 0 traction, the other side of the car gets ALL the torque transferred to it. This is exactly how you want AWD to work and represents the state of the art in performance AWD systems.

Since this question has been rehashed so many times and almost always gets answered incorrectly (as above), I am ending the thread here. For more information on this topic, check:
http://wallace.as.arizona.edu/~cgrop.../DCCD_FAQ.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
1) The DCCD manual control ONLY adjust the lockup percentage of the center diff. Contrary to ALL of subaru's marketing and popular belief, it does NOT directly adjust power or torque ratio. The transfer of torque through a partially or fully locked differential happens only when there is wheel slippage and even then it is highly variable based on slip ratio and lockup ratio. MOST drivers will benefit most from leaving it in the AUTO mode, which takes advantage of computer control based on yaw, g force, brake, and throttle inputs. In special conditions such as gravel or snow, you may find that putting it to MANUAL with a high lockup ratio will provide you with a more stable and predictable drive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
ok unabomber, i'm gonna ramble for a while here....

If you're trying to get somebody to understand why a particular diff is better or how a diff works, it is important to first define some of the terms that are tossed around. First and foremost, it is important to realize that the marketing snobs who write the brochures for Subaru are absolutely clueless when it comes to this topic and their claims are complete bull**** as a result.

The first and biggest myth is that the STI DCCD has a user-controllable torque bias. This is NOT the case. Torque is the twisting force applied on a rotating shaft. To help debunk this myth, lets introduce perhaps the single most useful analogy. Imagine a 4-way lugnut wrench. There is a side facing you, a side on the lugnut, and two more sides perpendicular to the first two that you grab onto with your hands to turn the wrench. Now imagine the torque wrench is your center diff. The end that's on the lugnut is the end of the car with traction and the end that is facing you is the end of the car that's on ice or has 0 traction. The two ends you hold with your hands represent the torque input from the engine. This would be a good analogy of a fully locked differential. Subaru would have us believe that this locked differential provides a perfect 50/50 torque split. If you are putting 80 ft-lbs into it and that is all being resisted by the lugnut, then how much torque is being resisted by the end of the wrench that's facing you? 0. In this case the torque split is 100/0. As you can see, the moment you lock a differential, the torque split becomes 100% traction dependent and very far from the set 50/50 that is touted in magazines or advetisments.

Ok enough of the analogies, how about the real thing... The 04/05 STI center diff in reality has gearing that causes the front to receive 35% of the torque and the rear to receive 65%. This gearing is the native torque split of the diff and cannot be changed with any electronic dial. What you CAN change is the lockup ratio of the diff which will have the effect of transferring torque from the wheel with less traction to the wheel with more traction. The amount of lockup ratio (what DCCD really controls) will affect the amount of total torque transfer. The more lockup ratio you can dial in, the more total torque can be transferred in a slipping condition.

Important to note that if no slippage is occurring, no torque is transferred and the bias remains, as always, at 35/65. What the STI's sales literature should say is that the center diff can go from 35/65 to wildly variable at full lockup. This doesn't look nearly as clean to folks who are reading because most folks won't separate the concept of torque and the wheel slipping. They think that 50/50 torque means the wheels are all moving at the same speed. Let me ask you, if one wheel is on pavement and receiving 50 ft-lbs of torque, and the other wheel is on ice and also receiving 50 ft-lbs of torque, which one is gonna spin first?

eh... i'm rambling. I'll stop for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
You have to separate "torque" and "power" from each other in your head. They are NOT the same. You can apply torque without applying power.

Differentials don't really worry about distributing "power". They worry about distributing torque. In the 04/05 Center Diff, they native torque split (which is governed by gearing inside the diff), is 35f/65r. This never changes. The DCCD has no ability whatsoever to directly control the torque split. What the DCCD does do directly is control the lockup of the pilot clutch. Again, this does NOT change the torque ratio directly, despite what the subaru marketing literature tells you. When you read the service manual and technicians reference bulletins, there is no mention of "50/50". That is pure marketing hype. The truth of it, nay, the truth of ANY limited slip differential is that the torque split becomes wildly variable, subject to ANY ratio between 0/100 and 100/0.

Torque can only be applied if there is something to resist it. If a tire is in the air, the only torque that can be applied is a brief couple lb-ft that it takes to spin the wheel. With an open differential which makes sure the torque split is ALWAYS the same regardless of wheelspeed differences, the fronts being in the air and only able to make 5lb-ft would mean the rears can only get 5*65/35 = 9.3lb-ft. This might not be enough to move the car very quickly, if at all. Result: front wheel spins fast, rear wheel barely moves.

Now if you have a limited slip differential, the gearing is still splitting the torque 35f/65r BUT now you also have a clutchpack that will re-transfer torque when there is a wheelspeed difference. In this case, the amount of torque that can be transferred is limited only by the lockup and the traction of the other wheels. If we have our fictional case of the car with the front wheel in the air only able to take 5lb-ft, and the rear wheel on pavement able to take 300lb-ft, then the rear wheel will get 300lb-ft and the front will get 5. Now, what's that torque split? It's a damn sight far away from 50/50! Result: rear wheels push car very fast, front wheels accelerate at the same speed as the rears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STI_FFY View Post
This subject keeps coming up and the discussion continues to show that this is one of the most misunderstood technologies in the STi.

1) When the dccd is open the torque split front/rear is dictated by the planetary gear ratio in the DCCD. So as stated in the 2006 documentation this would be 41/59 (as opposed to 35/65 in the 2004).

2) When the dccd is truly "locked", the torque split is dictated only by the maximum traction of the main clutch in the dccd. To my knowledge no one has ever measured this nor does anyone know the theoretical limitation. This clutch, when fully engaged, locks the elements of the planetary gearset to one another - effectively eliminating their function.

The open state is easily achieved by selecting it.

The truly "locked" state is not so easily achieved. It requires not only selecting "lock" but then there must be attempted differential rotation of the front/rear drive shafts by a small amount (something less than ~1/6 of a relative revolution).

When "locked" as above, and assuming that the main clutch in the DCCD can withstand it, the torque split can be thought of as 50/50, but in fact nearly 100% of the engine's available torque will be effectively routed to the axle with traction if the other axle has zero traction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhluhr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192
Now, with the open differentials, Torque is always split 50/50 IF traction is equal. If a tire loses traction power will go out the direction with least resistance.
This is partially correct, but mostly just misleading. Open differentials ALWAYS apply the same torque split to both sides, regardless of traction. The correct part of the quote is that more power goes to the slipping wheel, but that is only because power is the product of torque and angular velocity and if one wheel is spinning and the other is not, then one has higher power, but that doesn't really mean anything. The force of torque is what moves the vehicle and both sides of an open differential are seeing the same torque. If the front wheels are on ice and can only handle 2lb-ft of torque before slipping, while the rear wheels are on pavement and can handle as much torque as the engine can supply, the front wheels get 2lb-ft and the rear wheels get 2lb-ft. Now, that's a total of 4 lbft. If that's not enough to move the car, the car doesn't move. This is why sometimes you hear people suggest holding the brake a little bit when trying to get unstuck - because this resists the slipping and allows the differential to send higher amounts of torque to the wheels with traction.

Quote:
LSDs keep torque split at 50/50, when traction is not equal it will try to split the torque towards the tire with the most traction.
This is incorrect. The whole point of a limited slip differential is to allow the transfer of torque to the wheels with more traction. If the torque split is always 50/50, you are not transferring it. With a limited slip differential, the amount of torque that can be trasferred is limited only by the ability of the LSD mechanism to "lock up".

In the case of the viscous coupling on a WRX, the center diff is just a 50/50 open differential with a viscous coupling backing it up to provide torque transfer. Since it's a viscous coupling, the amount of torque it can transfer is limited and is also a function of axle speed difference (i.e. if both front and rear are going the same speed, 0 torque is transferred from the normal 50/50 distribution). In the case of the STi, the center diff is a 35f/65r torque bias plus an electro-hydrailically actuated clutchpack that is capable of providing a large amount of lockup.

Now, what is the actual torque split with LSD engaged? That is a very complex question but the short answer is that it can vary basically from 0:100 all the way to 100:0. Lets look at a couple examples:

*Locked differential and front wheels on ice: The torque on the front driveshaft that will cause the wheels to spin is 10ft-lbs. That is the max amount of torque that can be applied to the front driveshaft. Why? Because the ice will only "push back" with 10 ft-lbs, so the front wheels can only "push" with 10 ft-lbs. This is very important to understand. You can't push against something if it won't push back. But since the driveshafts are locked together, the engine is free to apply more than 10 ft-lbs to its connection at front driveshaft. In fact, think of it as just one large driveshaft, with the engine twisting the shaft at two places (side by side), one with 35% of its effort, the other 65%. If the engine applies 100 ft-lbs, what happens? 35 ft-lbs on the "front twist", 65 on the "back twist", but remember the front axle can only accept 10 ft-lbs. If the rear can take 90 ft-lbs before slip, then rest of the engine torque (90 ft-lbs) goes to the rear axle, which is (let us assume) enough to move the car. In this case the torque split is 10%F/90%R

*Locked differential and front wheels on ice and rear wheels on tarmac: Say in this case it will take 3 ft-lbs to spin the front wheels and 200 ft-lbs to spin the rear wheels, and these numbers take into account both the available traction and load distribution. Initially we will view the locked diff as creating one long driveshaft. Assume that it takes 100 ft-lbs to slip the clutch in the DCCD at 100% full lock. What this means is the maximum torque the engine can twist the front driveshaft with is 3 ft-lbs plus up to a max of 100 ft-lbs. Any more torque on the front driveshaft will cause the clutch to slip and the front wheels to spin. Working these numbers out shows the following: If the engine is supplying 294 ft-lbs of torque, then the front driveshaft "twist" is 35% or 103 ft-lbs, and the rear is 65% or 191 ft-lbs. At this point any more torque applied by the engine will overcome both the ice friction and the limited slip clutch friction, and the front tires will start to spin, and any more effort to increase engine torque after that will just cause the front driveshaft to spin faster and rev the engine. The split at the axles at that point will be 3 ft-lbs F/291 ft-lbs R, a torque split of roughly 1f:99r

So as you see, the actual torque split is going to be all over the place based on wheel speed differences, torque applied, traction at the wheels, etc.
And here are some clips showing how the system functions:

2004:

2005+:






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Old 06-08-2007, 04:19 PM   #7
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Edit: ^^^

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Old 06-08-2007, 04:35 PM   #8
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nhluhr = best self quoter evar! Fantastic post!
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:36 PM   #9
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golly! I will study and try to understand in my overwhelmed interpretation of all this material. In the mean time, I will drive in AUTO ala una's suggetion.

I stand corrected!
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaverboy View Post
nhluhr = best self quoter evar! Fantastic post!
yeah well you know... i get bored typing the same thing over and over
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:21 PM   #11
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http://velozt.com/elements/tech/sti/.../DCCD_FAQ.html is another source though I think it's basically a rehash above. I think I'll retitle this thread as the DCCD FAQ as this comes up often.

And to the original poster....my apologies if my first response sounded terse, but with the information you now see, you can see why I posted what I did. DCCD = mucho technical.
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Old 06-09-2007, 05:54 AM   #12
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url removed

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Old 06-09-2007, 05:59 AM   #13
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Sorry Q, that articles is 100% wrong and therefore I will not allow its inclusion in this FAQ thread.
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Old 06-09-2007, 06:00 AM   #14
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can you tell me whats wrong with it, it was the first thing I learned about that technology from.

i guess we can throw this out the window...

"Jim Kerr is a master automotive mechanic and teaches automotive technology. He has been writing automotive articles for fifteen years for newspapers and magazines in Canada and the United States, and is a member of the Automotive Journalist's Association of Canada"
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Old 06-09-2007, 06:08 AM   #15
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everything they mention about torque split is wrong. this is why automotive technicians fix cars and engineers build them.
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Old 06-09-2007, 06:11 AM   #16
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got it, i was just reading all your self quotes. amazing how wrong that dude was and got paid for it, kinda makes you wonder why even bother trying just type up any crap and send it in. get paid, use the money to buy a brand new STI.

I'm curious what are your sources for this info?
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Old 06-09-2007, 11:12 AM   #17
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Fantastic read - thanks

Does the same hold true if the rear wheels are on ice and the front on tarmac?

I have a tarmac rally car MY05. I race in auto mode. Occasionally / rarely the car snaps to overstear on power down full, or close to full, throttle corner exit. (Not far passed position C in the illustration) This is most often in 2nd and 3rd gear. It is so quick it feels like something has broken.

My theory has been that the inside front wheel lifts with the helical front the torque able to be applied drops, the DCCD reacts by switching from a significant degree of lock to it's native split.

I have fitted a plated front diff to match the rear plated diff, I haven't tested it but I hope it will work. I have set a pre-load of 65 foot pounds to the front. The rear has less (untouched from the factory)

Is my theory sound ?

My next step is to replace the DCCD computer with a programmable one.

Can you explain the difference between the helical and plated diffs?

Thanks
Dave

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Old 06-09-2007, 11:22 PM   #18
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Dave...visit the Driveline Forum and find the Differential FAQ that I authored. All will be explained and more and you will end up going cross-eyed over all the information in that thread.
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Old 06-10-2007, 01:56 AM   #19
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Thanks for that, you guys need to take it to take it outside. lol

I'm not sure I'm further ahead but it was interesting.
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Old 06-10-2007, 02:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T.McRally View Post
Fantastic read - thanks

Does the same hold true if the rear wheels are on ice and the front on tarmac?

I have a tarmac rally car MY05. I race in auto mode. Occasionally / rarely the car snaps to overstear on power down full, or close to full, throttle corner exit. (Not far passed position C in the illustration) This is most often in 2nd and 3rd gear. It is so quick it feels like something has broken.

My theory has been that the inside front wheel lifts with the helical front the torque able to be applied drops, the DCCD reacts by switching from a significant degree of lock to it's native split.

I have fitted a plated front diff to match the rear plated diff, I haven't tested it but I hope it will work. I have set a pre-load of 65 foot pounds to the front. The rear has less (untouched from the factory)

Is my theory sound ?

My next step is to replace the DCCD computer with a programmable one.

Can you explain the difference between the helical and plated diffs?

Thanks
Dave
This might be all kinds of wrong, but if I've read yours and the above posts correctly, perhaps this could be remedied with changes to your suspension setup?

*waits for the smackdown…

Last edited by Menik; 06-10-2007 at 02:11 PM. Reason: I suppose I shouldn't reply to threads I've left open overnight…
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Old 06-10-2007, 02:45 PM   #21
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Hey Una,

No worries about the terse words. I take no insult. Glad you made it a common FAQ as it does seem like an important feature to have info up about as I am sure there are people who are cornfused about the whole thing. Then they will see the post, say 'cool!' and then go slant-eyed trying to read the material. DER?!

But anyways, good info to try to understand.

adios
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:29 PM   #22
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In the manual it says:

"During cornering or when making turns (especially when getting into the garage), the rotational difference between the front and rear wheels may cause a braking effect accompanied by vibration and noise. This does not indicate a problem. The phenomenon will disappear when you turn the center differential control dial to the rearmost position (minimum intitial LSD torque position)."



What would happen if one would leave it in the rear all the time?
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:36 PM   #23
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It depends what year your car is.
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:38 PM   #24
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2007 Sti
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:53 PM   #25
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it would be in open all the time, and you might as well not have AWD. I mean yeah, you'd always be splitting 35/65, but if, as stated in most of the above examples, one set of wheels goes onto ice/gravel/etc, it's going to only be able to put as much torque as that surface can provide traction for, and after that it's just going to spin, while the other set of wheels will get their respective part of the torque split, which probably won't be enough to do much of anything.

*edit* typed that before you said what year you had. In the 07, it has a permanent mechanical LSD in it, so it's never truly an open diff. I have no idea what the settings are on that diff though.

I do have one question for Una and nhluhr, where, in the situation of an open diff and one set of wheels on ice, does the rest of the torque produced by the engine go? I mean, I can kinda picture it in my head, but I'm having trouble expressing it, so maybe you can.
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