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Old 02-08-2012, 12:12 PM   #201
ride5000
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you don't need "proven gains" to show you that the TB remains cooler.

i'll take my charge air as cool as possible, thanks.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:25 PM   #202
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how will it kill mileage???
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:12 PM   #203
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If your smart enough to do this mod without blowing a head gasket first check the

temperature of your intake manifold. Then try this mod then drive your car. Open the

hood and check your temperature on your intake manifold. Or just lay your hands on the

runners.

Cooler air is better if this was false then people would not use dry ice or meth any more,

on air and fuel on race cars.

hell hot air f-yeah! higher the better and f the heavy intercooler.But I don't know what IM talking about here its

not proven so you might want to skip this mod if your faint at heart. Don't bother trying to get the most

out of your car just be lazy. Just sayin
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Old 02-08-2012, 08:50 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColesSTi
If your smart enough to do this mod without blowing a head gasket first check the

temperature of your intake manifold. Then try this mod then drive your car. Open the

hood and check your temperature on your intake manifold. Or just lay your hands on the

runners.

Cooler air is better if this was false then people would not use dry ice or meth any more,

on air and fuel on race cars.

hell hot air f-yeah! higher the better and f the heavy intercooler.But I don't know what IM talking about here its

not proven so you might want to skip this mod if your faint at heart. Don't bother trying to get the most

out of your car just be lazy. Just sayin
Huh? 5
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Old 02-08-2012, 08:57 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColesSTi View Post
If your smart enough to do this mod without blowing a head gasket first check the

temperature of your intake manifold. Then try this mod then drive your car. Open the

hood and check your temperature on your intake manifold. Or just lay your hands on the

runners.

Cooler air is better if this was false then people would not use dry ice or meth any more,

on air and fuel on race cars.

hell hot air f-yeah! higher the better and f the heavy intercooler.But I don't know what IM talking about here its

not proven so you might want to skip this mod if your faint at heart. Don't bother trying to get the most

out of your car just be lazy. Just sayin
Makes zero sense.
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:02 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
how will it kill mileage???
hot air is better for mileage... Read around on the hypermiler forums, they run HOT AIR INTAKES. Hot charge air atomizes fuel better. Cold air tends to make fuel droplets stick together.

As for overall power, the TB really only has a chance to interact with the air when the throttle butterfly is partially closed. When its at WOT, it is blasting through the TB fast enough that any increase in temp is going to be miniscule at best. (on the order of 10ths of a degree, if even...)

At least from personal observation, there was no noticeable difference in the butt dyno, but mileage DID suffer according to a fairly carefully tracked spreadsheet.
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:20 PM   #207
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Funny I still get 25mpg.

Hot intakes? Might be the dumbest thing I heard today.
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:01 PM   #208
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A hot air intake? What?
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:01 PM   #209
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Do they burn their exhaust twice too?
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:50 PM   #210
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My car has a 2.5 tuned by a Hydra 2.7 ECU with GT35 also big valve head's. My mpg is improved over stock within reason. I have a short ram Amsoil filter. You might be correct because. A car that never fully warm's up to operating temperature, will suffer from over cooling...the car will not only suffer poor performance, but bad fuel economy. So...to fix that. You tune the cooling system. To fix your problem you need a good ECU and solid tune.

Glad we had this chat

Last edited by ColesSTi; 02-08-2012 at 11:47 PM. Reason: synolimit is a idiot
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:07 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
you don't need "proven gains" to show you that the TB remains cooler.

i'll take my charge air as cool as possible, thanks.
+1, I don't have the faintest idea how much the air would get heated up at the throttle body, but... one thing I do know it WILL heat up some... How much will the air heat up from the intake at the front of the hood to the MAF sensor? Well most people would think not much, but it CAN and did heat up 40*C/80*F from that short of a distance on my car with the stock set up under certain conditions...

EDIT; I don't believe 5 to 10 WHP tho, Maybe .5 to 1.0 WHP... JMO Still cooler IAT are ALWAYS better.

Last edited by wrxdrvr; 02-08-2012 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:51 PM   #212
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Hell yeah I siht you not don't you listen to the Ebay? Look for there add for this "Mod". Ebay wont lie!

Grounding mod is another 6 WHP on a 05 STi D sport did dyno a STi back in 05.

Ill take every ounce of horse power
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:06 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkramer View Post
hot air is better for mileage... Read around on the hypermiler forums, they run HOT AIR INTAKES. Hot charge air atomizes fuel better. Cold air tends to make fuel droplets stick together.
if atomization is such a concern, why don't folks run higher fuel pressure? i've been running 20psi over for many, many years.

Quote:
As for overall power, the TB really only has a chance to interact with the air when the throttle butterfly is partially closed. When its at WOT, it is blasting through the TB fast enough that any increase in temp is going to be miniscule at best. (on the order of 10ths of a degree, if even...)
trying to figure out if you think it has a big effect, or doesn't it?

Quote:
At least from personal observation, there was no noticeable difference in the butt dyno, but mileage DID suffer according to a fairly carefully tracked spreadsheet.
is your butt dyno "fairly carefully tracked" too?

did you make sure you bought the same batch of gasoline each time? did you make sure the ambient air temps were the same each time? how about relative humidity? did you make sure you drove the same roads with the same traffic patterns using the same gears and the same throttle angle with the same gross vehicle weight and the same tire pressure?

of course not!

if i want to boost my fuel economy by a mpg or two i'll just not go WOT every single day. somehow, after nearly 10 years, i still can't do that!
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:44 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
if i want to boost my fuel economy by a mpg or two i'll just not go WOT every single day. somehow, after nearly 10 years, i still can't do that!
Pre-heating intake air has proven to provide mileage increases... You can add all the opinions you want to the argument, but people have done quite a bit of testing of hot air intakes...

And as far as testing, I compared roughly 6 weeks of testing with the bypass to about a year of overall data. The bypass had a couple mpg lower on both the year average as well as any intervals at the same time. And yes, filled at the same stations, but there were more than enough samples to average it out.

And yes, it does cause an increase in charge temperature, I'll give you that. I'm relatively sure that no dyno in the world could detect the change in power from a change of .1 degrees... Keep in mind, that even with a little TD04, the flow rate through the TB at WOT is over 100 feet per second/70 mph. Also keep in mind the effects of laminar flow and boundary layer... Its optimistic to say that the TB could cause .1 degree rise in temp, its probably substantially less. It is apparent you simply don't understand how little of an effect it has on the overall system... The amount of heating at WOT is inconsequential. You would gain more power from the weight reduction of taking out your floor mats.

But its your car.... Like lots of noob mods, people think they know better and that removing stuff always increases power. Even if their gut tells them they are right, and they FEEL the increase. Still doesn't make it true.

Last edited by rkramer; 02-09-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:30 PM   #215
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Wow we have a good debate coolant or not to have coolant that is the question.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:26 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkramer View Post
Pre-heating intake air has proven to provide mileage increases... You can add all the opinions you want to the argument, but people have done quite a bit of testing of hot air intakes...

And as far as testing, I compared roughly 6 weeks of testing with the bypass to about a year of overall data. The bypass had a couple mpg lower on both the year average as well as any intervals at the same time. And yes, filled at the same stations, but there were more than enough samples to average it out.

And yes, it does cause an increase in charge temperature, I'll give you that. I'm relatively sure that no dyno in the world could detect the change in power from a change of .1 degrees... Keep in mind, that even with a little TD04, the flow rate through the TB at WOT is over 100 feet per second/70 mph. Also keep in mind the effects of laminar flow and boundary layer... Its optimistic to say that the TB could cause .1 degree rise in temp, its probably substantially less. It is apparent you simply don't understand how little of an effect it has on the overall system... The amount of heating at WOT is inconsequential. You would gain more power from the weight reduction of taking out your floor mats.

But its your car.... Like lots of noob mods, people think they know better and that removing stuff always increases power. Even if their gut tells them they are right, and they FEEL the increase. Still doesn't make it true.
this post is funny. we seem to be missing a fundamental part of the logical argument.

on one hand, you claim there are substantial fuel economy gains to be had via this mod. you base this on exensive logging.

on the other, you claim there are no performance gains to be had via this mod. you base this on hypotheticals and a considerable amount of handwaving. there is NO evidence it does NOT change torque, is there?

the logical issue is that you can't have it both ways. either the mod decreases charge air temp, or it doesn't.

if it DOES decrease charge temp, then it will ALSO increase torque output. it may or may not do this "out of the box," ie, without any tuning changes, but it WILL be possible. this is math, physics, engine tuning 101. cold charge air = bigger knock margin = more possible ignition advance before det. it's not up for debate.

if it DOESN'T decrease charge temp, then we have lost nothing via this mod. same before and after.

now, thankfully, someone actually quantified the change in charge air temp, many years ago, and i know where to find his results:

from http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/4531-t...tml#post323856

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggyrama
Ok folks, I ran some numbers and here is the comparison of intake air temp before and after the TB bypass mod. The numbers were taken on 2 different days, both within 1 degree of outside air temp, 60 and 61 degrees. I measured the temp while driving to work the same route, about the same style of driving, same conditions. First graphs shows before and the second shows after the mod:
from http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/4531-t...tml#post323861

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggyrama
What is important is the trend, not the spikes although their behavior is also interesting. The average difference is about 15 degrees less when running with TB bypassed.
so it seems that we HAVE some evidence that this bypass mod DOES affect the charge air temps. despite the fact that this test was done on a NA car (much easier as the temp sensor is in the manifold), i think it is reasonable to expect the same TREND of behavior on the FI version, even if the magnitude may be different.

repeatedly you have made an assertion that charge air temps are only important during WOT. i find that to be a very hasty generalization, especially when no other measures are taken to adjust the tune.

you are certainly free to do whatever you like with your car, and you are certainly free to discuss the empirical evidence you have collected wrt fuel efficiency. i am always looking for good data, as my recollection of a nearly 8 year old thread would attest. if you have conflicting data on the actual charge air temps in the manifold, or have some dyno numbers to show that, despite evidence suggesting charge air temps must necessarily be lower--to SOME EXTENT, there are no torque gains to be had, then i'd love to see them.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:36 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
the logical issue is that you can't have it both ways. either the mod decreases charge air temp, or it doesn't.
You noticed this too, eh?

His own arguments against it are further proof that it makes a difference.

If it heats the intake temps enought to make a difference in fuel mileage, then it heats the intake temps.

Therefor, bypassing it will reduce intake temps.

Plus, you know, the data from ziggyrama's test and all....
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:56 PM   #218
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WOOOOOW!!!!!! I am really surprised this debate is still happening....It's been awhile since I have been on and good to see everyone is still alive and well.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:30 PM   #219
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eh. Trying this with my thermal spacers and a tgv delete. It cant hurt.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:39 AM   #220
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I have kstech 16mm tgv spacers so I can reverse my intake manifold but have a pipe under still to the turbo
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Old 02-26-2012, 11:04 AM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColesSTi View Post
I have kstech 16mm tgv spacers so I can reverse my intake manifold but have a pipe under still to the turbo
and close the hood, HOW??
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:28 PM   #222
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I have to have a kick on the silicone hose on the 3'' inlet pipe. And roll the filter down

slightly for a short ram it dose hit. I have a APS hose has a kick on it. I also have a

out-front motorsports alternator relocated to a very low position off to the right where

the a/c once was seated. My intake manifold is fliped and 3'' pipe welded right on the tb.

Following the contour of the hood. I have a vibrant vanjen clamp welded on the 3'' TB PIPE

pipe going to a intercooler single center exit! triple fan FF dymanics extreme cross flow radiator! Also very light file on

the power steering for the pipe to fit. good and tight.

Last edited by ColesSTi; 02-27-2012 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:47 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColesSTi View Post
I have to have a kick on the silicone hose on the 3'' inlet pipe. And roll the filter down

slightly for a short ram it dose hit. I have a APS hose has a kick on it. I also have a

out-front motorsports alternator relocated to a very low position off to the right where

the a/c once was seated. My intake manifold is fliped and 3'' pipe welded right on the tb.

Following the contour of the hood. I have a vibrant vanjen clamp welded on the 3'' TB PIPE

pipe going to a intercooler single center exit! triple fan FF dymanics extreme cross flow radiator! Also very light file on

the power steering for the pipe to fit. good and tight.
is this real life?
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Old 02-27-2012, 09:09 PM   #224
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yes my car I have built element tuning engine big valve head tuned on hydra 2.7
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Old 02-27-2012, 09:11 PM   #225
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Last edited by ColesSTi; 02-27-2012 at 09:24 PM.
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