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Old 06-17-2007, 10:35 AM   #1
Unabomber
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Default Protune by Dan @ Mach V

I went up to Mach V for a Cobb Protune this saturday. Dan doesn't normally tune on saturday mind you, but he made an special exception in this case as we've been trying to get together for about 3 months or so and both our schedules never jivved. Results:

Before of VF30 Cobb base map vs. final tune. I used a VF30 base map due to the STI pinks that were installed prior to tuning.


Final tune vs. stock STI


Mods and applicable data:

Tune was on 93 octane, target boost was 18PSI
Dyno is a Dynojet (stock WRXs net 165 WHP)
My car has 205/45-16 tires so my apparent final drive is 4.16 vs. the stock 3.90
Stock third gear ratio is 1.366, my PPG third gear ratio is 1.500
Both the final drive and gear ratios are probably skewing my dyno results, but neither Dan or I are 100% of how much they are skewing them. Mathematically, the final drive results have a 5% difference, and the third gear issue results in a 9% difference.

Performance mods:

2004 WRX, stock block
JDM STi BPV
Crucial Racing uppipe
Perrin Pulley
TurboXS downpipe w/catback adapter pipe
Massiv USA catback
Borla Headers
JDM Ver. 7 STi Intercooler
Monster P&P & Internal P&P of stock turbo
TGV deletes
Walbro fuel pump
APS turbo inlet
STi pink injectors
Cobb AccessPORT & StreetTUNER

The only "problem" with this tune was due to boost control issues. I've apparently discovered the limits of the stock system. We tightened the hell out of the stock wastegate tensioner and installed a smaller restrictor pill. The net result was the boost we wanted, but sometimes it saw 17, 18, or 19 PSI on the dyno.

We were also complicated by the fact that either my small-assed tires and/or my other than OEM 3rd gear were skewing the loading on the dyno keeping the boost full onset a little more right than we would have liked/expected. This might also be blamed on the funky boost control as well.

Once off the dyno though....DAMN! Can you say 20PSI? Can you say 12PSI in first gear? Can you say 15PSI in 2nd gear? Acceleration in my car is now terribly fast and linear. I hope to get some better results as to PSI in what gear today, but that's what I remember from last night.

Overall, I'm terribly pleased. I do know I need to get some other form of boost control, but I will probably leave that for after my upcoming cruise. Maybe a bigger intercooler, some other bits, and a new tune will net better dyno results. From the road though......my dyno charts are just wrong though. My car is now scary fast. Watch this for updates later today/tonight.

My thanks to Dan! Thanks for lunch too! I guess I owe you Subway the next time I see you.
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Old 06-17-2007, 10:47 AM   #2
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Pretty decent numbers, especially that impressive torque for a 2.0l. After all it’s the torque that puts you back in your seat and make you smile

So are your spool numbers not accurate in the graph then? Looks like full spool before 3.5k rpm which is pretty damn impressive given the number of mods. Also, looks like your pulls stop well before 6k

I’m always surprised how many tuners prefer to tune/pull in 3rd gear versus 4th on a 5MT. Dan tried to explain it to me once before; something related to mechanical leverage, but I still don’t see how 3rd is more ideal given there’s less load on the engine then a higher gear (i.e. tune to the limits in 3rd…go over the edge {det} in 4th)….

Last edited by xcntrk75; 06-17-2007 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 06-17-2007, 10:51 AM   #3
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How does one become terribly pleased?



Another thing to add to your long and welcome list of "manifesto" threads! Eeeeeeeeexcellent.
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Old 06-17-2007, 11:05 AM   #4
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congrats man..numbers look good
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Old 06-17-2007, 11:19 AM   #5
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Looks good! I know what you mean in the difference between the numbers and feel. I remember my stomach dropping a bit during my first 4th gear pull after my last tune. Enjoy it!
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Old 06-17-2007, 11:24 AM   #6
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You seem to be going pretty rich above 3500 RPM's. Is that normal? Looks like 11 at about 4700 RPM. Is it to reduce the chance of detonation?
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Old 06-17-2007, 11:29 AM   #7
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Man that is some exellent torque numbers! Nice setup.
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Old 06-17-2007, 11:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
You seem to be going pretty rich above 3500 RPM's. Is that normal? Looks like 11 at about 4700 RPM. Is it to reduce the chance of detonation?
AFR looks pretty good to me… 11.x:1 on 93 pump gas for an FI car is not rich at all. The common standard for pump fuels is in the 11.x:1 range. Race gas, alky, etc. run up in the 12.x:1 range.
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Old 06-17-2007, 11:48 AM   #9
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Ron...didn't we have a big go-around about how much the stock solenoid sucked? Are you going to race me this Friday and show me what a stock turbo can do or what? You make more tq than me now...Why are you only hitting 12 psi in first and 15 in second? Were those lower numbers than peak on purpose?

Last edited by mxboy15u; 06-17-2007 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 06-17-2007, 03:07 PM   #10
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ballin' torque! love it.
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Old 06-17-2007, 03:44 PM   #11
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Why stop pulling at 6k?
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Old 06-17-2007, 03:55 PM   #12
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meh. my mini S if fastAr!
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Old 06-17-2007, 08:34 PM   #13
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^ oooooh!
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Old 06-17-2007, 09:59 PM   #14
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I'm confused... your results are skewed which way? You can't flip a switch in the DynoJet software that says the tire size/final drive/whatever is different?

Idunno much about all this tuning stuff

john
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Old 06-17-2007, 11:03 PM   #15
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There is not software fix for final drive/gear ratio.

My tune was for 18 PSI and yes....I have found the limits of my stock boost controller as my boost is "wandery". You tune based on 3rd gears pulls though you should still not get as much boost as I do in first gear. I got pretty nasty tonight and got 12PSI in first and 17 PSI in second gear. I did a nasty 3rd gear pull on base today ( ) and hit 20 PSI. Don't know about 4th/5th as I haven't been on any lonely roads to see what those will do yet.

This car is NASTY now though....downright NASTY.

Pulls were done to redline, but the tach cable was futzy during the tune above 6K so the plots didn't come out. We all know that the numbers taper after 6K so it's no big loss, but that's the reason for the apparent cut-off.
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Old 06-18-2007, 12:42 AM   #16
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Nice inprovement there --- very much worth the wait it looks like.

Running that sort of boost is very addictive, ---- don't get too carried away!

It would be fun to see what you could get out of that with a better fuel.

Larry
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:31 AM   #17
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so the ice cream gets home from the store before it starts to melt?
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Old 06-18-2007, 06:47 AM   #18
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I can show you logs of me hitting well over 12 psi of boost in 1st gear...and taper? I do not taper at all. That stocker must be running out of breath way up there.

And Ron, didn't you make 250whp before when you dyno'd in the past? What were your mods then, and what kind of dyno was it?
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxboy15u View Post
I can show you logs of me hitting well over 12 psi of boost in 1st gear...and taper? I do not taper at all. That stocker must be running out of breath way up there.
Boost controller/solenoid…wastegate configuration…turbo limitations… plenty of things can contribute to lower boost situations in 1-2 and boost tapering up top. It’s actually pretty common when you run higher target boost from larger turbos to not see that target in the lower gears where the engine can’t produce enough load. Especially when you run a boost controller or EM platform that operates on a single boost map configuration. Some of the expensive EBC’s get around this by running individual boost maps per gear so you can actually offset the lower engine load in those low gears with more wastegate or solenoid duty-cycle.

As for taping; unless you’re actually over-running and outside of the compressor map for the turbo, taping is directly related to wastegate control as the load tapers off high in the rpm range. The performance high-speed solenoid valves available (common 3-port block style) coupled with an EWG will correct any boost tapering that previously occurred due to their ability to better manage the exhaust flow traversing the turbine. Taping at high rpm is just a limitation of using the stock “bleeder” solenoid combined with internal wastegate.

So my point; it’s kind of hard to say “hey look at me, I can hit target boost in 1st gear” when your turbo, wastegate, solenoid, boost management and target boost configuration could all be completely different.
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:37 AM   #20
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Congratulations on the #'s ... very close to what I saw with my tune. I am hitting ~ 23-24 psi in 4th gear around 4k rpm's. Let me know when you want to hit the track ... Battle of the Stock turbos
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Old 06-18-2007, 10:13 AM   #21
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My last tune netted similar HP numbers on another dynojet, but my new torque is way up. Mind you, one can never compare one dyno run to another, but I'm sure that had I had better boost control, my "dyno queen" numbers would be better. Dan dangled several quick solutions in front of my face, but time and money made me be not so greedy for numbers and be happy with what I have.

My biggest eye opener of this tune vs. last one is the boost in the lower gears. My last tune was 16 PSI, but I got the typical nothing in 1st or 2nd. This tune...those two "useless" gears are crazy. Sadly, I haven't had time to drive more the last two days. I hope to go over to Kienan's today and have him or anyone hanging out there drive it to see if they agree with my opinion.
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Old 06-18-2007, 10:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rice wrx View Post
Congratulations on the #'s ... very close to what I saw with my tune. I am hitting ~ 23-24 psi in 4th gear around 4k rpm's. Let me know when you want to hit the track ... Battle of the Stock turbos
I wish...though we are the same....my car is entirely different feeling than yours. If we don't battle, I'd at least like you to drive it and see the difference.
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Old 06-18-2007, 12:23 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcntrk75 View Post
I’m always surprised how many tuners prefer to tune/pull in 3rd gear versus 4th on a 5MT.
The biggest reason (for me) is that the load of the dyno rollers for an AWD car is HIGHER than the load on the car on the real road. The combined weight of the two rollers is equivalent to something like a 5000-pound car. So fourth gear on the dyno is more load than fourth gear on the road. Also, because of the high load, the dyno run would be really LOOOONG. It's tough on the car to run it wide open for a long time; I'd prefer to minimize the strain on the car.

Two-wheel drive cars we run in higher gear (fourth gear on a five-speed) -- the one-to-one gear ratio and ONE roller's worth of mass makes the car behave as if it's on a real road.

--Dan
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Old 06-18-2007, 12:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
I'm confused... your results are skewed which way? You can't flip a switch in the DynoJet software that says the tire size/final drive/whatever is different?
From one standpoint, you don't NEED to, because the dyno knows the speed of the rollers and the speed of the engine. It doesn't really care what size wheels you have, because if you have super-huge wheels, you'll just generate less torque to the wheels but over a longer time, and if you have smaller wheels you'll generate more torque over a shorter time. Horsepower delivered should be the same.

Real-world experience tells us that the same car will dyno slightly different in different gears, because (probably) of loading effects on the engine. Ron's car has a slightly different effective final drive because of both gearing and tire size differences. The effect is probably minor -- certainly less then the difference from being in a different gear.

In any case, the difference from start to finish is what I focus on when the car is on the dyno, so it could have rollerskate wheels on for all I care...

--Dan
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Old 06-18-2007, 12:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxboy15u View Post
I can show you logs of me hitting well over 12 psi of boost in 1st gear...and taper? I do not taper at all. That stocker must be running out of breath way up there.
your boost tapers off with a stock turbo. holding a bar at redline is actually pretty difficult, though not impossible.

you might not notice it, but it's there.
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