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Old 07-04-2007, 08:59 AM   #1
ride5000
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Default the ADI journey begins...

so basically over the past few weeks i've been accumulating the parts for a very capable ADI setup.

HARDWARE:

i've got:

ERL/shurflo 150w 125psi bypass pump w/accumulator
DDS3 junction box/PCB
aquamist HSV
aquamist flow sensor
0.8, 0.9, 1.0mm nozzles
manifold pressure switch
tank level switch
various fittings, etc.

i DO NOT have the DDS3 display gauge, and have no immediate plans to get one.

still gotta pick up a tank and some nylon hose.

basically the plan is to use the DDS3 board as designed to provide a nexus for the control signals.

since i do not have the DDS3 gauge i am trying to determine exactly what it does, and how it does it. this will be a work in progress since many of the features must be tested in situ, but i'm pretty certain that i can get the vast majority of the functionality from external components.

for example, i know that the pinout of the flow meter is as follows:
Red =+12V
Blue = 0v
Yellow = 0.5V - 4.5V Flow signal
Green = 5-1V external calibration (100-1000 ml/min) - default setting = 2.5V internal

which means that i can feed 12vdc in red, ground the blue, and leave the green with no connection, and net an analog output voltage of 0.5v to 4.5vdc out the yellow wire.

at this point in time, my understanding is that the DDS3 gauge has the capacity to output an "external calibration" analog voltage to be fed via the green wire back to the flow meter (adjusted via the SC trimpot on the gauge). since i do not need to scale out the flow signal voltage (yet) i'll just leave it disconnected.

in the default setting it appears as if the max output voltage (4.5v) from the flow meter also corresponds to a flow rate of 450cc/min. convenient! i could simply monitor this voltage with a voltmeter and read the flow rate directly, OR i could feed this voltage directly into my tuner pro's analog input and log it through the tuner pro dashboard, OR hook it up to something like this: http://dan.pfeiffer.net/train/vmeter.htm and have a nice dash display (though not as nice as the aquamist gauge).

from what i can see, the gauge appears to have two comparator circuits in it, set by the WL and WH trimpots, that define the safe operating area for the signal provided by the flow gauge. if the flow rate signal falls outside this area, the gauge signals the DDS3 board that a failure has occured. strictly speaking there is no reason why these two comparator circuits could not be assembled from a pair of opamps. however, depending on the availability/cost of a gauge it may be too much trouble to be worth it! i'm going to cross that bridge when i come to it.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:04 AM   #2
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FLOW RATE AND NOZZLE SELECTION

starting off with nozzle selection, i need to derive a rough estimation of what my total ADI rate is going to be.

most sources indicate a volume ratio of about 10-15% ADI to gasoline. ie, 1600cc/min gasoline = 160-240cc/min ADI flow rate.

since i plan to use a high speed solenoid to control partial flow rates, i want to shoot for a little headroom, so i am going to target 20% of gasoline. i can always dial it back using the HSV at less than 100% duty.

if i take an peak WOT airflow of around 300g/s (seen a few times running silly boost in very cold ambient temps), and a target afr of 12.5:1, that gives me 24g/s fuel rate. the mass airflow rate is easily logged from the oem ecu and is quite accurate UNLESS you have fooled around with either the MAF sensor housing OR the MAFV-g/s translation table. (i have done neither.)

24g/s fuel rate at a specific gravity of 0.74g/cc nets 32.4cc/s, or 1946cc/min from the fuel injectors. we'll call it 2000cc/min.

1/5th or 20% of that is 400cc/min.

i've got a aquamist hfs setup, which runs at 125 psi. i have three different nozzles:
Code:
jet (mm)		rate (cc/min)		rate (cc/s)
0.8			420			7.00
0.9			470			7.83
1.0			520			8.67
at first glance you'd assume that any of the three will work just fine. HOWEVER there is the fact that the manifold pressure is working against the ADI pump to reduce the effective pressure at the nozzle.

i run around 25psi, so that means that at full tilt i'll have ~100psi across the nozzle itself.

here's a chart from richard that shows the variation of flow rate wrt nozzle size and pressure:



so if i seek 400cc/min or better at full boost i can't use the 0.8mm--i'll have to use the 0.9 or 1.0.

there is also the issue of pressure drop across the various restrictions of the flow sensor, HSV, fittings, and plumbing. although the output of the pump is regulated at 125psi, we'll NEVER see the full 125psi at the nozzle while the nozzle is squirting. this reduction in effective nozzle pressure due to flow restriction will be added to the other reduction due to manifold boost pressure. also, as a way of linearizing the HSV DC:flow response, a pre-HSV restrictor of approximately the same size as the nozzle can be fitted, and i plan to do so. however, this will further reduce nozzle pressure at max flow. at 95psi the 0.9mm nozzle is down to 400cc/min. still within my window, but right on the line.

finally i have heard it said a few times that one should go larger in nozzle size when running higher perecentages of methanol. to give myself a little headroom for higher meth concentrations i'm going to use the 1.0mm nozzle. if i need less flow i'll do it by dialling back the HSV duty. with the pre-HSV restrictor in place i should see a pretty good alignment between duty cycle and nozzle flow rate.

i don't want to go TOO big because that will mean that my solenoid is "off" a greater percentage of the time. this concerns me from the standpoint of equal and homogeneous ADI distribution, especially since the UTEC which i will be using to control the HSV has a clock frequency for PWM at 15Hz... kind of on the slow side considering the speed of charge air in the intake tract. the more i can be close to 100% duty, the better off this distribution will be. i am even considering using two nozzles, offset along the length of the intake tract, to provide better distribution, but there aren't a whole lot of options to do so when using a TMIC.

ultimately the closest i can come to a verification of the above assumptions will be to operate the system at various DCs and measure the output. this will provide some datapoints with which i can plot HSV DC vs. flow rate and come up with some "real-life" charts.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:36 AM   #3
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TORCO INJECTION

in this thread http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816287 i tossed around the idea of injecting torco accelerator with the ADI rig.

assume we want the same concentration as 32oz torco in 14g 93oct gasoline, to give a bump of 8-9 octane points (ie 101-102oct)

14g*128oz/g = 1792oz

32oz/1792oz = 0.017857142857142857142857142857143

ie torco:gasoline = 1:56 by volume

according to the msds for torco (http://www.torco.com/media/Unleaded%20Accelerator.pdf) the specific gravity of unleaded accelerator is 0.75g/cc, about the same as gasoline.

gasoline: 0.74g/cc
torco: 0.75g/cc

that's handy, because it means that volumetric ratios can be taken as equivalent to mass ratios.

ie torco:gasoline = 1:56 by mass AND volume. we'll call it 1:50 for ease of math and a little bit more mmt.

ok, so now i know that the torco rate should be about 50x smaller.. if my fuel delivery rate is 2000cc/min max then my torco rate should be 40cc/min. since i'm planning on using a 1mm nozzle that'll give me a little bit more than 400cc/min for a total ADI delivery rate, so a rough estimate is that i could use ~a 10:1 ADI mix:torco ratio and be in the ballpark.

if i double the rate of torco delivery i could net about 12-13 octane points, bringing me up to 104-105, and that would require a 5:1 ADI:torco mix ratio and squirting around 400cc/min.

the only thing i don't know is if the torco will really find its way all the way to the chambers, or if it will evaporate along the way and leave a deposit or film of MMT on everything intermediate. i know that i definiately don't want to inject it pre-compressor, and i had planned on working towards eventually doing just that with my ADI setup.

i have to say though that the draw of having on-demand 104+ octane even before the more traditional power-adding effects of ADI get factored in is pretty damned appealing.
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:23 PM   #4
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Looks like a good plan.

Will the pump and lines support torco? I suppose this might be part of the grand experiment.

Given the 15hz delivery rate of the UTEC and thus low resolution of the 3d torco fueling map and the general "pain in the arse"ness of actually tuning a hsv ADI (from what I read and talked to Hill about) and also the worries even ADI delivery to each cyl, are you maybe making too much trouble for yourself?

Don't get me wrong, I want to see you get this working A little devils advocate here.

You've read my posts on enginuity and have seen my though process. I gave up on the complex setup and have found a simple on-off delivery based on boost and or throttle position gave me the easiest means to tune ADI. Hell, you might have even suggested I go that route, lol.

You've written a bunch here, so forgive me if I missed it. Would you try a water torco mix to up knock protection and possibly alleviate evaporation concerns?

Good luck, keep this thread updated.
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Old 07-04-2007, 07:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tgui View Post
Looks like a good plan.

Will the pump and lines support torco? I suppose this might be part of the grand experiment.

Given the 15hz delivery rate of the UTEC and thus low resolution of the 3d torco fueling map and the general "pain in the arse"ness of actually tuning a hsv ADI (from what I read and talked to Hill about) and also the worries even ADI delivery to each cyl, are you maybe making too much trouble for yourself?
oh yeah, i'm pretty sure i'm making too much trouble for myself!

i'm not entirely certain how it's going to end up. this is what i'm planning on, and what i'll test initially as a sort of "proof of concept."

what tempers my immediate distaste of the slow HSV clock cycle is the fact that there's NO WAY all of the ADI mixture evacuates the intake tract the INSTANT the valve shuts off. sure, the charge won't be nearly as saturated as it would be when the nozzle is squirting full blast, but 15Hz means a max of 66mS between pulses, and that's still a pretty short period of time. there will undoubtedly be a lot of ADI media stuck to the walls of the intake tract. unlike the fuel injectors which basically point right at the intake valves, my intended primary ADI nozzle location (right in the collection tank of the TMIC) has a lot more "pipe" between it and the chamber.

i had also tossed around the idea of putting a second nozzle pre IC. this will reduce the efficiency of the IC since it will decrease the inlet temp and therefore lower the delta T from charge to ambient, BUT it will also allow some pretty cool stuff. for example, at a complete standstill, at idle, triggering a pre IC ADI will actually pull the IC core temp to well below ambient temps! it does this by evaporating the ADI medium inside the core itself. no external sprayer, or external fans necessary. the heat gets pulled out and combusted and blown out the exhaust, and it doesn't matter because you're sitting at a red light idling. when the light turns green you now have additional power on tap because of the heatsink effect of your colder than ambient IC.

not surprisingly, there are benefits and detriments to each approach.

the other thing i've tossed about is pre-comp ADI, and that has a lot of merit to it too. 1) there would be a "large" distance between injectors so that i could be assured a pretty even average flow of ADI media, and 2) there are some pretty attractive compressor efficiency benefits to be had, especially at higher mass flow rates. obviously the one big downside is a high probability of compressor wheel damage if the droplet size is too large and/or not sufficiently atomized, or if it collects on the walls of the pre-compressor inlet tube and is sucked down into the inducer in liquid form.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I want to see you get this working A little devils advocate here.
no no, don't worry about raining on my parade. i welcome the comments. the devil you know is better than the one you don't, and the whole purpose of starting a new thread is to document the fits and starts of trying something new and still relatively unexplored. at this point i'm working on the theory, and trying to predict some results. once the setup is actually complete, there will be some experiments to test the theory out. the theory may very well have to be revisited (i would be shocked if it doesn't!) and revised in light of new experimental data.

Quote:
You've read my posts on enginuity and have seen my though process. I gave up on the complex setup and have found a simple on-off delivery based on boost and or throttle position gave me the easiest means to tune ADI. Hell, you might have even suggested I go that route, lol.
i probably did! i will start off that way to get a handle on testing things, failsafes, max ADI flow before misfires, etc.

at the very least i'll use the 3-d map ability of the UTEC to soften the "knee" of the initial ADI turn on, to make it "come on" a little bit more softly.

the other great benefit of using the UTEC is that there is a single place controlling ALL of the operating parameters--boost, fuel, ign, and ADI--so if i program the ADI to go 100% DC at 5500 rpms and 80% load, i can go to the same exact load cell and pull 4% of my fuel. i don't have to translate this to that, and hope that they stay aligned, etc.

Quote:
You've written a bunch here, so forgive me if I missed it. Would you try a water torco mix to up knock protection and possibly alleviate evaporation concerns?
well, i know right off the bat that pure torco and pure water ain't gonna fly. the MMT is only very slightly soluble in water, which means that's not the solvent in the bottle. it's got to be something hydrocarbon based, probably a petroleum derivative. i wouldn't be surprised if it was toluene or some other aromatic. now, alchy WILL mix with petrol since they are both non-polar molecules, but water IS polar and will separate out. the water will always mix perfectly with the alchy, so there will be a certain percentage of water content that will cause the petrol base to settle to the top and they alchy/water to settle to the bottom. i'd like to find out what that point is. if i could mix 45% water, 45% methanol, and 10% torco, i'd be pleased.

the only reason i'm looking hard at torco is the fact that it is so concentrated and powerful. it doesn't work like mixing aromatics like toluene/xylene into your tank, which only averages the octane ratings. it works on a molecular level, like TEL, and trace amounts can have stunning effects. it's expensive but not ridiculously so, and the attractiveness only goes up if it can be harness on a demand basis, instead of the way it is traditionally used which is "in the tank."

Quote:
Good luck, keep this thread updated.
oh you can be sure of that, eric!

-ken
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:21 PM   #6
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I read all your posts and got lost after "so basically over the past few weeks". I hope you don't die in a fire Ken and wish you luck with whatever the hell it is you are doing. I know the pedal on the right is the gas and that's about it.
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:43 AM   #7
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RUMINATIONS ON IAT/MAT, SPEED-DENSITY, AND ADI

i run a utec in speed density mode for anything over 13psi boost. underneath that threshold is an openecu diy reflash.

one of the "downsides," at least theoretically speaking, of a utec SD setup is the fact that the IAT sensor is in the MAF housing, and the MAP sensor is in the manifold. (the hydra "suffers" the same fate in default--and phil suggested--form.) if the charge air temperature in the manifold is close to the intake air temperature in the airbox, then everything lines up and the gods are happy.

however, as the temps diverge, a larger error factor will be introduced.

if the IAT is colder than the MAT (ie, you have a heatsoaked TMIC) then the utec assumes MORE air is entering the engine than actually is, and you end up with a rich/retarded condition--actually a pretty good "accident."

if the IAT is warmer than the MAT (ie, you have an effective external IC sprayer, or ADI injection, or a block of dry ice on the core, etc) then the utec assumes LESS air is entering the engine than actually is, and you end up with a lean/advanced condition--good for power, perhaps bad for knock.

in an ideal situation as the temps drop we could just run more advance and leaner afrs, since it's harder to get a nice cold charge to det. however it has been my experience that this effect is only partially present--you reach a charge air temp where you CANNOT run more advance and/or leaner afrs, since that nice cold charge air is more dense. you have increased the density in the chamber and that in turn has increased the burn rate.

my IAT compensations have been set up in exactly that way--retarded timing at BOTH temperature extremes. on the high side because hot charge is closer to just lighting itself off, and on the low side because the cold charge creates a much higher cylinder pressure and neither needs nor tolerates higher advance.

(sidebar--in a maf-load based ems like the oem ecu you only end up with the "high IAT" correction, since as the temps drop the maf sees the increased density and pushes you into a higher load column, which ostensibly has richer afrs and/or retarded timing.)

now, i may be making a mountain out of a molehill here. perhaps the fact that the utec won't "see" an increase in engine load once there's a nice drop in charge air temp as the ADI kicks on is a GOOD THING. as i said, the effect of this will be to run leaner and more advanced than you would be running if the utec "saw" that change in load. what do you do when you tune for ADI? run leaner and more advanced! it might just mean that i have to make comparatively less changes to my maps for ADI use than i would if i had a "true" representation of load.

it doesn't sit perfectly well with me to intentionally spoof the UTEC's idea of how much air is actually entering the engine, but the proof is in the pudding and if the afrs are predictable and stable then that's the point, right? i have posted a question to phil in the standalone forum since i know the hydra has a SD based load and does not relocate the IAT, and is used with ADI (the "hydramist").

the other option would be to relocate IAT from the maf sensor to the manifold somewhere, and i've certainly tossed that idea around before. after thinking about it over the past few days, i've come to the conclusion that it would be "better" in that there's a true representation of the pressure and temperature of the charge air in the manifold, which is the foundation of SD. however, i also think that there would be more differences in the ultimate fuel/timing maps because the inherent leaning/advancing that i spoke of earlier would not take place. i don't know if it's worth the trouble.

there is also the issue of how the oem ecu would react to having its IAT relocated. one possible way out of that pickle would be to just wire in a GM MAT sensor to the utec only, and leave the IAT sensor hotwired to the oem ecu.

ahhhhh... so many aspects to think about.

Last edited by ride5000; 07-06-2007 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:20 AM   #8
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Lets try this again, browser crashed last post attempt.

If you need installation ideas, here is my setup. There are 2 nice mounting points if you pull the back seat off. The tank is held on with angle brackets as the seat back is at an angle. The smaller tank is part of a brake fluid changing kit from autozone and really helps to keep the pump from sucking in air when the fluid is sloshing around. I did my best to mount the tank above the pump and below the mount point in the intercooler.

*I'll eventually fashion up a cover for this.



Here is the arming switch with the red "everything is ok" fluid light. Its off, fluid is low. Red button turns on power for the whole ADI system. Thank you mr dremel and radio shack.




And just for the fun of it all.


Viola!


Woooo hidden map switch.

Last edited by Tgui; 07-09-2007 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 08-23-2007, 08:15 AM   #9
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got one of these in the mail yesterday:



no idea when i'll have time to install and work on it though! (closing on house on 31st of this month...) at least i'm collecting all the parts i'll need.

ken
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:40 PM   #10
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Very interested in your progress.

-Rene
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
got one of these in the mail yesterday:



no idea when i'll have time to install and work on it though! (closing on house on 31st of this month...) at least i'm collecting all the parts i'll need.

ken
Is the tank aluminium or stainless steel? Very nice tank by the way. Outlet is hugh, what was it designed for?
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:56 AM   #12
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it's aluminum, richard... 3x 8-an ports, one of which has an anti-rollover check valve which i'll use for a vent line.

complete specs:
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

from my research it seems that methanol attacks/dissolves the aluminum oxide layer that forms on the surface of all exposed aluminum. i do not plan on running 100% meth... too expensive and dangerous and prone to adsorption of water anyway.

what i'm looking for is a injection fluid that is cheap and easy to source anywhere. i'll probably settle on washer fluid, though experimentation will inevitably occur! i've also tossed around isopropyl as a possibility, especially since no one seems to be using it.

ken
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:34 AM   #13
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Excellent explanation of the moths inside your head Ken!

I read through the whole thing and am still wondering how you plan to trigger the system (boost, MAFv, throttle position) and what failsafes you will employ (low fluid, etc)?

I am subscribed for the progress and any suggestions I may be able to offer (as I have spent some time contemplating a similar setup).
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:01 AM   #14
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Just a thought... you may want to install a fluid level sight gauge on the side of that tank to check fluid level. I can't tell if it has one or not. That's one drawback of not using a plastic tank.
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:08 AM   #15
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no, there's no sight gauge built in.

one of the things i've got is a simple on/off float valve that i can use as a failsafe. it does require me to punch a hole in the tank to use it.

triggering for the system will be done via MAP. pump will probably kick on around 10psi and injection will start slightly over wastegate (12psi). i do plan to do a 3d pwm map with the utec using MAP and RPM as the axes.
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
i had also tossed around the idea of putting a second nozzle pre IC. this will reduce the efficiency of the IC since it will decrease the inlet temp and therefore lower the delta T from charge to ambient, BUT it will also allow some pretty cool stuff. for example, at a complete standstill, at idle, triggering a pre IC ADI will actually pull the IC core temp to well below ambient temps! it does this by evaporating the ADI medium inside the core itself. no external sprayer, or external fans necessary. the heat gets pulled out and combusted and blown out the exhaust, and it doesn't matter because you're sitting at a red light idling. when the light turns green you now have additional power on tap because of the heatsink effect of your colder than ambient IC.


the other thing i've tossed about is pre-comp ADI, and that has a lot of merit to it too. 1) there would be a "large" distance between injectors so that i could be assured a pretty even average flow of ADI media, and 2) there are some pretty attractive compressor efficiency benefits to be had, especially at higher mass flow rates. obviously the one big downside is a high probability of compressor wheel damage if the droplet size is too large and/or not sufficiently atomized, or if it collects on the walls of the pre-compressor inlet tube and is sucked down into the inducer in liquid form.
What about having a 2nd tank containing H2O (and maybe a low % of alchy as an antifreeze) to spray pre-IC or pre-compressor in addition to the main ADI system? If you ran both tanks to the same pump with a two-way valve, you could spray only water to cool the IC when idling to avoid heatsoak and save the precious octane boosting meth or torco for when power and knock resistance is needed on boost.

Shoud not actually be too complicated to setup. Run the 2-way valve based on boost pressure (<5 psi say) and low TPS (say <10%) to address low speed heatsoak.

So you would have 3 operating conditions- 1. Normal cruising where no spray is needed 2. At a stop or in stop& go traffic where the H20 would spray pre-IC 3. Meth or torco mixture spraying post-IC when on boost.
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The journey begins skeisenb South East Region Forum 8 08-25-2001 09:44 PM


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