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Old 08-09-2007, 10:30 PM   #1
Casey
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 82371
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Princeton, MA
Vehicle:
2002 IMPREZA
22 psi @ 2600rpm

Default Is this knock?

First, Car is an '02 WRX 5spd.

Relevant mods:
3" catless TBE
catless uppipe
ported factory exhaust manifolds
MBC
ebay TMIC
P&P Throttle body
K&N panel filter
1 step colder copper spark plugs

I am having some problems with KC at higher rpms after making some changes to my KC maps. My timing advance is all 10.2's

In an attempt to monitor knock at higher rpms I changed:
Feedback Correction Range (rpm) to enable below 7000 and disable above 7100
Fine Correction Range (rpm) to enable below 7000 and disable above 7100
Fine Correction Range (load) to enable below 3.1 and disable above 3.2
Rough Correction Range (rpm) to enable below 4300 and disable above 4400
Rough Correction Range (load) to enable below 2.9 and disable above 3.0

Knock seemed unlikely to me especially after logging tonight with a flattened timing map above 6500 rpm (15* base + 10* advance)

Log:

Code:
AF Learn    AFR	Load	RPM	Timing	IDC	IAT	KC	MRP	MAF	Throttle	MPH
0	11.25	0.1	2223	29	6.17	70	0	-6.38	3.98	0	20
0	16.42	0.11	2262	17	2.98	70	0	-10.01	3.73	0	20
0	23.66	0.19	2022	12	0	70	10	-10.59	5.49	0	21
-2.34	23.54	0.78	1775	7.5	2.27	70	10	-8.71	25.92	9.02	21
-2.34	14.13	0.92	1623	27	7.27	70	10	-3.34	25.56	15.29	22
-2.34	13.9	1	1672	8	8.91	70	10	-1.16	27.25	18.43	22
-2.34	12.86	1.11	1644	21	9.12	70	10	0	31.29	22.35	22
-2.34	12.63	1.1	1686	20	11.15	70	10	1.31	31.88	63.53	22
-2.34	11.25	1.12	1734	21.5	12.2	70	10	1.89	33.41	100	22
-2.34	12.4	1.17	1787	22.5	12.96	70	10	2.18	35.89	100	22
-2.34	12.29	1.21	1842	23	13.36	70	10	2.47	37.83	100	23
-2.34	12.17	1.24	1882	23	14.46	70	10	3.05	39.92	100	23
-2.34	12.06	1.24	1936	23.5	14.87	70	10	3.34	41	100	24
-2.34	12.17	1.26	1986	23.5	15.68	70	10	3.77	42.73	100	24
-2.34	12.17	1.29	2026	23.5	15.99	70	10	4.21	45.07	100	26
-2.34	12.06	1.28	2095	23.5	16.53	70	10	4.5	47.12	100	26
-2.34	12.29	1.31	2134	22.5	17.3	70	10	4.93	48.5	100	26
0	12.06	1.37	2220	22	18.47	70	10	5.37	52.03	100	27
0	11.83	1.42	2264	20.5	19.8	70	10	5.95	55.34	100	27
0	11.83	1.5	2331	19.5	20.89	70	10	6.38	60.02	100	29
0	11.48	1.61	2397	18	22.5	70	10	7.25	67.3	100	29
0	11.25	1.75	2456	17.5	25.15	70	10	7.98	73.19	100	30
0	11.25	1.89	2504	17	27.78	70	10	9	82.02	100	30
0	11.25	2.12	2607	17	32.25	70	10	10.01	96	100	33
0	11.25	2.4	2669	17	38.71	70	10	11.9	110.74	100	33
0	11.25	2.65	2763	17	44.21	70	10	13.78	125.59	100	34
0	11.25	2.95	2873	16.5	51.49	70	10	17.12	147.45	100	34
0	11.25	2.92	2943	16	60.91	70	10	20.02	149.67	100	37
0	11.25	2.74	3074	16	62.29	68	10	21.33	151.07	100	37
0	11.25	2.81	3248	16.5	63.75	68	10	20.46	156.93	100	39
0	11.25	2.79	3356	17	65.86	68	10	20.31	161.27	100	39
0	11.25	2.76	3514	17	68.22	68	10	19.73	168.16	100	43
0	11.25	2.82	3599	17	69.86	68	10	19.59	173.31	100	43
0	11.25	2.76	3691	17.5	71.65	68	10	19.73	176.46	100	43
0	11.25	2.66	3866	17.5	72.99	68	10	20.02	179.35	100	47
0	11.25	2.66	3985	18	73.96	68	10	19.88	181.28	100	47
0	11.25	2.66	4089	18	76.77	68	10	19.88	183.84	100	50
0	11.25	2.67	4194	18.5	77.54	68	10	20.02	190.84	100	50
0	11.25	2.64	4290	18.5	79.63	68	10	19.73	192.92	100	53
0	11.25	2.65	4424	19	80.93	68	10	19.59	202.28	100	53
0	11.25	2.61	4523	19	85.88	68	10	19.59	202.28	100	57
0	11.25	2.59	4652	19	86.35	68	10	19.44	204.36	100	57
0	11.25	2.54	4732	19	87.82	68	10	19.44	205.75	100	60
0	11.25	2.57	4851	19.5	89	68	10	19.3	210.49	100	60
0	11.25	2.54	4914	19.5	90.16	68	10	19.01	212.72	100	63
0	11.25	2.49	5020	19.5	92.1	68	10	18.86	213.09	100	63
0	11.25	2.52	5144	19.5	93.27	68	10	18.57	219.76	100	66
0	11.25	2.51	5230	19.5	95.95	68	10	17.99	221.99	100	66
0	11.25	2.45	5300	19.5	96.11	68	10	17.7	220.88	100	69
0	11.25	2.42	5419	20	97.1	68	10	16.83	221.25	100	69
0	11.25	2.39	5486	20	97.14	68	10	16.98	220.88	100	69
0	11.25	2.37	5555	20	95.99	68	10	16.69	221.99	100	72
0	11.25	2.34	5673	20	96.82	66	10	16.25	223.84	100	72
0	11.25	2.3	5729	20.5	97.78	66	10	16.11	222.73	100	75
0	11.25	2.27	5823	21	98.13	66	10	16.11	222.73	100	75
0	11.25	2.21	5896	21	98.11	66	10	15.67	221.62	100	78
0	11.25	2.2	6014	21.5	97.51	66	10	15.67	224.21	100	78
0	11.25	2.2	6102	22	98.94	66	10	15.53	224.21	100	80
0	11.25	2.2	6127	22	98.04	66	10	15.09	223.47	100	80
0	11.25	2.17	6250	24.5	98.67	66	10	15.09	224.21	100	82
0	11.25	2.1	6214	24.5	98.09	66	10	15.09	224.21	100	82
0	11.25	2.08	6394	24.5	99.57	66	10	14.8	224.63	100	84
0	11.25	2.06	6493	25	99.74	66	10	14.8	221.62	100	84
0	11.25	2.06	6460	25	99.22	66	10	14.65	223.47	100	87
0	11.25	2.04	6522	25	98.78	66	8	14.65	223.84	100	87
0	11.25	2.01	6579	25	99.65	66	7	14.65	225.77	100	87
0	11.25	2	6726	21.5	100.45	66	7	14.65	226.17	100	89
0	11.25	1.95	6775	21.5	101.17	66	7	14.8	223.47	100	89
0	11.25	1.97	6874	22	101.19	66	4.5	14.8	226.17	100	91
0	11.25	1.93	6893	21	101.47	66	2.5	14.8	223.1	100	91
0	11.25	1.92	6944	19	102.22	66	1.5	14.8	223.1	100	93
0	11.25	1.94	6976	16.5	101.21	66	1.5	14.95	224.21	100	93
0	11.25	1.93	6951	16.5	100.83	66	1.5	14.95	224.98	100	94
0	11.25	1.89	7009	16.5	101.68	66	1.5	14.95	225.38	100	94
0	11.25	1.89	7143	16.5	102.09	66	1.5	15.09	225.38	100	96
0	11.25	1.89	7170	16.5	102.48	66	1.5	15.09	224.98	100	96
0	11.25	1.87	7150	16.5	102.19	66	1.5	15.09	224.61	100	98
0	11.25	1.86	7288	16.5	101.72	66	1.5	15.09	226.57	100	98
0	11.25	0.54	7302	16.5	102.82	66	0	14.95	63.55	100	99
0	12.17	0.04	7062	11.5	0	66	0	-0.58	4.82	0	99
-2.34	25.61	0.19	6708	11.5	0	66	0	-8.56	19.64	0	99
-2.34	24.23	0.22	6117	11.5	0	66	0	-9.58	20.55	0	99
So I pulled back my Fine correction range to enable below 6300rpm and disable above 6400rpm

Here is the second log (done within 15 min of the previous log on the same stretch of road):

Code:
AF Learn	AFR	Load	RPM	Timing	IDC	IAT	KC	MRP	MAF	Throttle	MPH
-3.12	13.67	0.06	2578	15.5	0	77	0	-10.74	2.75	0	25
-2.34	22.62	0.1	2320	11.5	0	77	0	-10.88	3.96	0	25
-0.78	23.66	0.58	2111	28	9.01	77	10	-4.06	34.11	18.04	25
-0.78	16.08	1.01	1942	28	11.19	77	10	-0.58	32.82	22.75	25
-3.12	13.78	1.04	1978	26	11.82	77	10	0.29	33.29	24.71	27
-3.12	13.78	1.01	2040	27	12.62	77	10	0.73	34.47	25.49	27
-3.12	13.67	1.08	2044	26.5	12.71	77	10	1.45	36.8	28.24	27
-3.12	13.32	1.14	2164	26	15.23	77	10	2.61	41.28	29.02	28
-3.12	12.86	1.24	2246	25	16.77	77	10	3.34	46.52	41.18	28
-3.12	12.06	1.32	2260	18.5	18.5	77	10	4.5	49.78	69.41	29
-3.12	11.94	1.37	2357	20.5	20.11	77	10	5.37	53.97	100	29
-2.34	12.17	1.42	2414	19	21.57	77	10	6.24	57.14	100	31
0	11.83	1.54	2466	18.5	23.67	77	10	6.96	63.09	100	31
0	11.37	1.66	2540	17.5	26.55	77	10	7.98	70.25	100	32
0	11.25	1.86	2630	17	31.41	77	10	9.29	81.49	100	32
0	11.25	2.02	2696	17.5	36.81	77	10	10.74	90.82	100	34
0	11.25	2.21	2783	17	43.34	77	10	13.06	106.87	100	34
0	11.25	2.52	2886	17	50.49	77	10	15.24	121.13	100	35
0	11.25	2.83	2962	16.5	60.53	77	10	19.15	139.85	100	35
0	11.25	2.99	3095	16	64.71	77	10	21.18	152.46	100	38
0	11.25	2.77	3434	17	66.66	75	10	19.73	158.39	100	41
0	11.25	2.8	3536	17	67.89	75	10	19.59	164.87	100	41
0	11.25	2.77	3658	17.5	70.55	75	10	19.73	169.06	100	45
0	11.25	2.76	3822	17.5	73.39	75	10	19.88	176.14	100	45
0	11.25	2.72	3910	17.5	73.4	75	10	19.88	177.42	100	48
0	11.25	2.7	4071	18	76.43	75	10	20.02	179.67	100	48
0	11.25	2.65	4128	18	77.49	75	10	20.17	182.56	100	52
0	11.25	2.6	4237	18.5	77.73	75	10	19.88	183.84	100	52
0	11.25	2.61	4363	18.5	79.95	75	10	19.59	189.69	100	55
0	11.25	2.62	4470	19	82.95	73	10	19.59	195.54	100	55
0	11.25	2.62	4568	19	84.77	73	10	19.73	199.66	100	58
0	11.25	2.57	4684	19	85.94	73	10	19.59	201.04	100	58
0	11.25	2.54	4804	19.5	88.14	73	10	19.59	203.45	100	62
0	11.25	2.56	4864	19.5	89.23	73	10	19.3	207.38	100	62
0	11.25	2.47	5020	19.5	89.95	73	10	19.01	207.01	100	62
0	11.25	2.48	5071	19.5	90.87	73	10	18.57	209.95	100	65
0	11.25	2.48	5151	19.5	93.4	73	10	18.28	212.53	100	65
0	11.25	2.49	5241	19.5	91.84	73	10	17.85	217.68	100	68
0	11.25	2.46	5334	19.5	95.59	73	10	17.56	218.78	100	68
0	11.25	2.41	5474	20	96.93	73	10	17.27	219.88	100	71
0	11.25	2.39	5551	20	95.93	73	10	17.12	218.41	100	71
0	11.25	2.33	5652	20	96.46	72	10	16.54	219.52	100	74
0	11.25	2.31	5699	20.5	96.05	72	10	16.4	219.52	100	74
0	11.25	2.26	5846	21	97.27	72	10	16.25	220.62	100	76
0	11.25	2.26	5854	21	97.42	72	10	15.96	220.99	100	76
0	11.25	2.26	5901	21	96.93	72	10	15.82	222.09	100	78
0	11.25	2.21	6043	21.5	97.98	72	10	15.53	222.09	100	78
0	11.25	2.19	6068	21.5	97.08	72	10	15.38	221.73	100	78
0	11.25	2.16	6198	22	99.17	72	10	15.09	223.64	100	81
0	11.25	2.13	6229	24	98.34	72	10	15.09	220.99	100	81
0	11.25	2.08	6334	24	98.65	72	10	14.95	219.88	100	83
0	11.25	2.1	6426	24	98.71	72	10	14.8	222.12	100	83
0	11.25	2.06	6471	24.5	99.39	72	10	14.8	222.46	100	86
0	11.25	2.02	6596	24.5	99.91	72	10	14.51	221.72	100	86
0	11.25	2.01	6614	24.5	100.17	72	10	14.8	221.72	100	88
0	11.25	2	6696	24.5	100	72	10	14.65	222.85	100	88
0	11.25	2.02	6672	24.5	99.64	72	10	14.65	224.8	100	89
0	11.25	1.98	6750	25	99.37	72	10	14.65	223.22	100	89
0	11.25	1.95	6862	25	101	72	10	14.8	222.85	100	92
0	11.25	1.93	6931	25	100.56	72	10	14.8	222.46	72.16	92
-0.78	11.25	0.17	6666	11.5	0	72	0	-6.67	19.04	0	92
0	13.21	0.04	6378	11.5	0	72	0	-9.14	3.97	0	93
Now I have 10's for KC.

I figure there are two possiblilities to explain this:

1) My lowering the range for Fine correction I am now ignoring knock at higher rpms

or

2) At these higher rpms the knock sensor is picking up on other engine noises besides knock that affect the fine correction.

Can anyone help me out?

Thanks in advance.
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Last edited by Casey; 08-09-2007 at 10:51 PM.
Casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 11:13 PM   #2
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

Download the latest Enginuity logger definitions and you'll be able to log feedback correction and fine correction. I suggest you also read the following:
http://www.enginuity.org/viewtopic.php?t=1840
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2007, 01:59 PM   #3
crazymikie
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56321
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Hopkinton, MA
Vehicle:
2006 Honda El Camino
Green

Default

I had my knock listening up to 7250 RPM and ran the car to 7500 RPM with ~21 PSI at redline. I never had problems with the car pulling timing up there. Since high RPM detonation is probably the most destructive, you should either get some det cans and listen to the noise or you should put the car on the dyno and see what's happening. Replacing a motor isn't fun and there is no reason to chance it.
crazymikie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 12:00 PM   #4
Casey
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 82371
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Princeton, MA
Vehicle:
2002 IMPREZA
22 psi @ 2600rpm

Default

I figured it out yesterday.

The road I have been using to datalog gets a little bumpy especially when I get going above 80mph so I had a hunch that the car was rattling and causing false knock readings. Here is a 3rd gear log on a smoother road:

Code:
AF learn AFR	Load	RPM	Timing	IDC	IAT	KC	MRP	MAF	Throttle MPH	Fine KC	Feedback KC
-0.78	11.25	0.19	4587	11.5	7.84	63	0	-7.55	13.73	0	62	0	0
-0.78	19.06	0.25	4615	11.5	0	63	0	-9.14	19.15	0	62	0	0
-3.12	25.5	0.28	4598	11.5	0	63	0	-9.29	20.96	1.57	63	0	0
-3.12	23.89	1.3	4688	28.5	35	63	10	-0.15	101.71	99.22	63	0	0
-2.34	11.25	2.1	4676	20	67.37	63	10	6.82	162.85	100	63	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.72	4789	19.5	95.02	63	10	18.57	216.8	100	63	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.58	4879	20	92.83	63	10	20.46	210.49	100	64	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.55	5040	20	93.8	63	10	19.01	212.35	100	64	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.53	5119	20	94.18	63	10	18.43	216.06	100	66	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.54	5237	20	95.15	63	10	18.28	220.1	100	66	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.54	5342	20	99.14	63	10	17.7	226.17	100	68	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.46	5486	20.5	99.48	63	10	17.27	224.98	100	68	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.45	5564	21	98.75	63	10	17.12	224.98	100	71	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.38	5677	21	99.31	63	10	16.69	224.98	100	71	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.37	5736	21	98.78	63	10	16.4	225.77	100	74	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.34	5832	21	98.68	63	10	16.25	226.17	100	74	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.29	5910	21.5	98.34	63	10	15.96	225.77	100	77	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.28	5966	21.5	99.28	63	10	15.82	226.57	100	77	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.27	6043	21.5	99.27	63	10	15.53	228.56	100	80	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.22	6162	22.5	99.51	63	10	15.38	226.57	100	80	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.21	6318	25	101.09	63	10	15.24	227.76	100	82	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.16	6388	25	100.25	63	10	14.8	226.57	100	82	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.11	6435	25	100.34	63	10	14.95	226.17	100	85	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.07	6544	25	101.92	63	10	14.95	226.17	100	85	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.08	6556	25	100.7	63	10	14.8	226.96	100	87	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.07	6708	25	99.91	63	10	14.8	227.36	100	87	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.02	6756	25	102.34	63	10	14.95	227.76	100	89	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.05	6781	25.5	102.16	63	10	14.8	231.51	100	89	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2	6824	25.5	101.91	63	10	14.95	227.36	100	91	0	0
-0.78	11.25	2.01	6836	25.5	102.09	63	10	15.09	228.55	100	91	0	0
-0.78	11.25	1.97	7002	25.5	103.08	63	10	15.09	229.35	100	93	0	0
-0.78	11.25	1.94	7036	24.5	103.56	61	10	15.09	227.76	0	93	0	0
-0.78	12.98	0.03	6510	11.5	0	61	0	-9	3.75	0	94	0	0
So last night I turned up my mbc a half turn and kept the map the same. My map was definitely not ready for such a high load in higher rpms:

Code:
AF learn AFR	Load	RPM	Timing	IDC	IAT	KC	MRP	MAF	Throttle MPH	Fine KC	Feedback KC
0	23.77	0.09	2372	11.5	0	54	0	-11.03	3.43	0	27	0	0
0	23.43	0.13	2042	11.5	2.61	54	10	-10.74	4.41	7.84	27	0	0
-0.78	20.33	1.04	1916	22	10.58	54	10	-1.74	32.96	18.82	27	0	0
-0.78	13.9	0.96	1934	25.5	10.73	54	9	-0.73	30.9	19.61	27	0	-1.05
-3.12	13.78	1.11	1941	24.5	12.42	54	9	0.15	33.67	29.41	26	0	-1.05
-3.12	13.09	1.2	1997	22.5	14.49	54	10	2.03	39.06	76.47	26	0	0
-3.12	11.83	1.24	2007	24	15.42	54	10	2.9	41.62	100	27	0	0
-3.12	12.06	1.3	2064	23.5	16.29	54	10	3.77	44.54	100	27	0	0
-3.12	12.17	1.32	2114	22.5	17.14	54	10	4.35	46.16	100	27	0	0
-3.12	12.17	1.37	2182	21	18.62	54	10	4.93	49.36	100	27	0	0
-2.34	11.94	1.42	2231	20	19.52	54	10	5.8	52.77	100	29	0	0
0	11.94	1.5	2291	19	21.51	54	10	6.38	56.68	100	29	0	0
0	11.71	1.58	2336	17.5	22.93	54	10	7.4	61.65	100	30	0	0
0	11.48	1.77	2418	16.5	26.82	54	10	8.42	71.34	100	30	0	0
0	11.25	1.95	2503	16.5	32.58	54	10	9.87	80.78	100	31	0	0
0	11.25	2.15	2564	16.5	36.65	54	10	11.75	91.8	100	31	0	0
0	11.25	2.44	2668	16.5	43.82	54	10	13.49	102	100	33	0	0
0	11.25	2.76	2706	16.5	50.58	54	10	16.83	125.38	100	33	0	0
0	11.25	3.07	2889	15	61.63	54	10	20.89	147.74	100	35	0	0
0	11.25	2.94	2998	15.5	61.41	54	10	21.91	147.74	100	35	0	0
0	11.25	2.97	3184	15.5	65.2	54	10	21.91	156.2	100	38	0	0
0	11.25	2.95	3317	16	68.63	54	10	21.76	163.15	100	38	0	0
0	11.25	2.89	3464	16.5	67.99	54	10	21.04	164.36	100	41	0	0
0	11.25	2.94	3564	16.5	72.21	54	10	20.6	174.33	100	41	0	0
0	11.25	2.92	3720	17	74.6	54	10	20.75	180.76	100	45	0	0
0	11.25	2.86	3896	17.5	76.47	54	10	20.89	184.65	100	45	0	0
0	11.25	2.8	4026	17.5	79.01	54	10	20.75	187.56	100	48	0	0
0	11.25	2.75	4160	18	80.75	54	10	20.6	188.2	100	48	0	0
0	11.25	2.71	4252	17.5	81.63	54	9	20.46	192.22	100	52	0	-1.05
0	11.25	2.68	4430	17.5	84.11	54	9	20.31	198.82	100	52	0	-1.05
0	11.25	2.71	4518	17.5	85.78	52	9	19.73	204.01	100	56	0	-1.05
0	11.25	2.7	4638	17.5	88.01	52	9	19.73	208.64	100	56	0	-1.05
0	11.25	2.63	4777	18	89.68	52	9	19.73	207.9	100	60	0	-1.05
0	11.25	2.63	4883	18.5	91.67	52	9	19.59	213.63	100	60	0	-1.05
0	11.25	2.61	4996	10	93.8	52	0.5	19.01	217.37	100	63	0	-9.49
0	11.25	2.57	5119	10	96.11	52	0.5	18.72	219.61	100	63	0	-9.49
0	11.25	2.54	5256	10.5	97.54	52	0.5	18.28	222.6	100	67	0	-9.49
0	11.25	2.54	5368	10.5	99.64	52	0.5	17.99	223.72	100	67	0	-9.49
0	11.25	2.51	5419	10.5	99.42	52	0.5	17.7	226.36	100	70	0	-9.49
0	11.25	2.51	5514	11	100	52	0.5	17.56	228.34	100	70	0	-9.49
0	11.25	2.44	5601	11	99.18	52	0.5	17.27	227.54	100	73	0	-9.49
0	11.25	2.48	5639	11.5	101.05	52	0.5	16.98	233.13	100	73	0	-9.49
0	11.25	2.4	5751	11.5	100.61	52	0.5	16.83	228.74	100	75	0	-9.49
-0.78	11.25	0.07	5694	11.5	0	52	0	0.29	6.48	0	75	0	0
I think that was pretty bad for my engine.
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