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Old 10-24-2011, 01:26 PM   #1051
httrdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHATsuby View Post
Does anyone have the EZ36R mechanical general description PDF? The one with all the engine specs? I have no idea how but I got nearly all the other sections except the mechanical section for some reason.

please PM me if you do!

thanks!

Ben
This would be epic!!
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:47 PM   #1052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphinwolf View Post
Wiring harness from who? For what motor into which chassis?
me. ****ing usps lost/has drew's original one I did for him, so I took my harness out of this car:

98rs and non egr 92
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:24 PM   #1053
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That sounds really good....
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:51 PM   #1054
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sounds glorious!!!
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:07 PM   #1055
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and before the pm onslaught, this is the exhaust.

nothing on this car is bought.
3" 316LSS to 3-4" 304LSS to 4" 316L
Vband
TIG

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Old 10-25-2011, 06:48 PM   #1056
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That sux a big one!
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:23 AM   #1057
EVL RS-T
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Anyone have a EG33 ecu they want to sell? Just got a '94 EG33 and wiring harness but need to find an ECU.
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:58 AM   #1058
Patrick Olsen
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I'd check www.car-part.com, should be able to find one pretty easily there. Also check over on RS25.com in the Swaps & Conversions forum - there a few guys in the bigass H6 sticky that do lots of EG33 stuff and might have some spares.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:31 PM   #1059
biggreen96
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Or the Svx forum...
Subaru-Svx.net
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Old 10-30-2011, 10:42 PM   #1060
PHATsuby
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So what is the issue with the EZ36, could the lambchop rod problem not be solved with say, a custom piston and rod combination?

Is there any solution to be able to use a straight H-beam type rod with some low compression pistons? I assume anything is possible but how possible is this? I am assuming it isn't as simple as changing the wrist pin location on the piston(is that even possible?)

thanks

Ben
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Old 10-30-2011, 11:19 PM   #1061
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the rod is designed like that so that you can assemble the engine. No wrist pin access holes on the EZ36...or so my good Subie mechanic friend told me.
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Old 10-30-2011, 11:23 PM   #1062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
the rod is designed like that so that you can assemble the engine. No wrist pin access holes on the EZ36...or so my good Subie mechanic friend told me.
hmm, so it's not a function of the stroke? I saw some MS paint photo showing that they were bent like that to avoid the piston contacting the rod at BDC.

are you saying I can't trust MS paint engineering?

but seriously if you know for certain the answer that would be sweet.

thanks

Ben
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Old 10-30-2011, 11:32 PM   #1063
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they aren't bent, the bolts/cap go on at an angle.

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Old 10-31-2011, 09:04 AM   #1064
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Ok, so issue is that you can't do a typical aftermarket rod like that and it needs to be truly forged to get that shape?

Isn't "bent" and the cam caps being at an angle the same thing? because when it is at TDC the rod is not in a straight line correct? I am trying to visualize it but maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly.

thanks for the help.

Ben
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:46 PM   #1065
PHATsuby
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Ok this is a lot clearer to me now if this is how the EZ36 is:


That is from the diesel EE20 I believe.

Does someone know if this is how the rod is? If so it seems like it would be reproduceable as a stronger H-beam right?

I am still looking for the pdf's of the EZ36 if anyone has them, I really don't want to spend $35 if I don't have to haha.

thanks

Ben

Last edited by PHATsuby; 11-01-2011 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:47 AM   #1066
Duderotomy
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^ An H or I-beam rod is quite possible for the EZ36, but it's likely not going to be as strong as the equivalent symmetrical rod.
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:20 AM   #1067
PHATsuby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderotomy View Post
^ An H or I-beam rod is quite possible for the EZ36, but it's likely not going to be as strong as the equivalent symmetrical rod.
You may be right but why is that? In thinking about it and looking at the picture I posted, when the rod is at TDC isn't the force going down the centerline of the rod still(just like a symmetrical rod)? How would having the bolt location change that? If you just look at the rod from the top of the crank opening to the top of the rod it looks identical and symmetrical in shape. If it experiences detonation wouldn't it face the same forces as a "normal" rod?

The fact that this style is used in the subaru diesel motor should tell us that it can't be THAT weak right? Those may in fact be larger rods but aren't diesel engines typically 20:1 compression plus forced induction?

I could be wrong so if anyone has good data on this please set me straight.

thanks

Ben
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Old 11-01-2011, 12:44 PM   #1068
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Ben has a good point here. Rods usually buckle because of torque, not so much power. And If diesel torque levels are ok, then FI power should be worth a test. Question here because I'm a cheap a-hole is this: what are the dimensions of those diesel rods?
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:20 PM   #1069
PHATsuby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuj1wara View Post
Ben has a good point here. Rods usually buckle because of torque, not so much power. And If diesel torque levels are ok, then FI power should be worth a test. Question here because I'm a cheap a-hole is this: what are the dimensions of those diesel rods?
I was literally trying to find this info as you posted. Hard to post this in but the first number in each section is the EE20 dimension. The issue is that we need to compare these to the EZ36R, only the EZ30R is listed, I can't believe this has been talked about since 2007 and no one has gotten the PDF's for the 36... I'm so pissed I didn't download engine specs I don't get why I didn't. I can only imagine there was some technical issue and then i forgot to go back to it.

Code:
EE20 (BOXER DIESEL)
EJ20 (petrol)
EZ30 (petrol)
Displacement
cc
1,998
1,994
2,999
Maximum power output
kW(PS)/rpm
110(150)/3,600
110(150)/6,000
180(245)/6,600
Maximum torque output
Nm(kgfm)/rpm
350(35.7)/1,800
196(20.0)/3200
297(30.3)/4.200
CO2 emissions
(g/km)
148 (Sedan)
209 (Sedan MT)
243 (Sedan MT)
Compression ratio
16.3
10.2
10.7
Bore  stroke
mm
86.086.0
92.075.0
89.280.0
Bore pitch
mm
98.4
113
98.4
Bank offset
mm
46.8
54.5
46.8
Deck height
mm
220
201
202
Journal diameter
mm
Φ67
Φ60
Φ64
Crankpin diameter
mm
Φ55
Φ52
Φ50
Effective Length of Connecting Rod
mm
134
130.5
131.7
Piston pin diameter
mm
Φ31
Φ23
Φ22
Compression height
mm
43.0
33.5
30.0
Fuel injection system
Common rail type
MPI
MPI
Turbo charger
Variable nozzle turbocharger
��
��
EGR layout
Water cooled
��
��
Diesel Particulate Filter
Open Type
-
-
Engine length
mm
353.5
414.8
438.4
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Old 11-01-2011, 03:17 PM   #1070
Duderotomy
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I'm merely speculating here as I would have to see an actual stress diagram on the part to know for sure... but wouldn't rotating the bolts around the axis result in higher shear forces on the rod bolts?
I know that on a regular piston the studs primarily see tension and compression forces, but by twisting things like they've done I'm pretty sure you've introduced extra shear forces into the equation.

I'm not a mechanical engineer though, so I am merely speculating at the moment based on the mechanical engineering courses I did have to take in school (I'm a civil engineer).
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:28 PM   #1071
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you could be correct, it's been a while since I dropped out of ME haha.

I emailed Ron at Outfront Motorsports yesterday to get his input on using the EZ36 for a forced induction application. I also called earlier and left a message, so I'm hoping to have some good info later today. Once I hear back though I'll share what I know.

Ben
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Old 11-01-2011, 07:01 PM   #1072
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oh the misinformation on rod design and failure makes me giggle...do some reading. 99% of forum folks think rods fails because they bend, not because they are stretched when coming away from top dead center and then compressed once passed the elastic region.
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Old 11-01-2011, 07:15 PM   #1073
PHATsuby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
oh the misinformation on rod design and failure makes me giggle...do some reading. 99% of forum folks think rods fails because they bend, not because they are stretched when coming away from top dead center and then compressed once passed the elastic region.
So where is your EZ36 rod and piston combo that you designed and are running in your H6 setup?

Are you saying the asymmetrical rod design is not an issue and someone would be able to get aftermarket rods made to work for FI?

Also, in the rod failure you are describing how does that occur?

thanks

Ben
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:51 AM   #1074
PHATsuby
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So I spoke with John from Outfront Motorsports last night for about an hour, very nice guy and very helpful and knowledgeable.

Here is the run down: The EZ36 is not boost friendly and to make it usable for forced induction will likely cost about twice as much as a EZ30R build. He said he was breaking EZ36 cranks(has broken 3 I believe) when boosting them over 10psi. For reference this is on 10:1 compression, but he said he has never broken a EZ30R crank even at a claimed 800hp and 10:1 compression.

He had some custom $4000 EZ36 cranks made and the one he is currently using has not broken yet, but that is an extra $4000 you don't need to spend on the EZ30. He also was running the EZ30 H beam rods in the EZ36 by doing some work on the block to make them able to install. He said the assymetrical rods are not the issue but they aren't strong from the factory.

So basically the bottom line is that the EZ30 is the way to go if you plan to have forced induction.

The one thing I found surprising is that he scoffed at the potential for 600hp with dual VF39's. I said my only reference I had in mind was a H6 with a GT40R making 600whp so 600hp at the crank seems possible. He seemed to think that was a super inflated number. While I agree dynos can be manipulated and are only a tool for tuning, if a baseline Sti is even 250whp then you can't argue as much against a delta of 350whp.

At the very least If we know the Sti has 300hp from the factory, I'd reasonably guess you are 380hp at stage 2. that is about 150hp/liter. If we extrapolate that out to the 3.0 then 450 should be fairly easily achieved at stage 2 boost levels with hopefully some bit of reliability.

Ben
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:20 AM   #1075
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Attack two things... One base calculations of a 207's numbers not a 257's numbers. Way more accurate. Also factor how many times that boost is broken down. 4 cylinders will never as efficiently use 20lbs as an H6. Along with how quickly you will build said boost.

Anywho. EZ36R... What most don't know or take time to look into... The crank is recessed down about 3"s. that's how they fit all that stroke without going wider on the block and heads. You physically could never use a "normal" Subaru push rod in them. Also the reason for so much failure. It messed with the leverage on the crank AND rod. Force is not evenly distributed... Still if I could get 3.6 heads onto a 30R block... Mmmm... DAVCS...
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