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Old 01-24-2008, 10:56 PM   #101
Slack
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The EZ30R uses MAF.

Andy, you just made me think of something. Could the ECU be looking for the speed signals from the ABS sensors and transmission for VDC? I'm pretty sure the H6 Outbacks all have VDC. Without the entire VDC system, it might cause the the ECU to stay in limp mode.

I wish all this stuff wasn't so complicated. There were tons of people who warned me in the beginning that this swap would be crazy to attempt. They were right.

Mick
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:59 PM   #102
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^^ better you than me j/k!

I've started my swap but I must tell you Mick's thread healped clear up a lot of doubt I had in getting started.

A few things that I've figured out, EG and EZ engine mounts are different, was looking to use group N or Cusco mounts instead of the soggy stock EZ mounts.

Radiator- I have a 40mm core aluminum radiator that I added an additional upper outlet to, so it matches the twin outs on the EZ. And I have two very slim fans that still are pullers.

Headers- I've looked at stock EZ headers and they made me want to cry. I am having flanges made so I can fab up a set of custom headers. The stock headers appear to be the biggest restriction to the EZ30R's top end.

Transmission- This is my specialty, I have a few options here in house, I have a 6mt, a Modena Dog Box (I hate dog boxes), or a nice set of helical / syncro PPG's. The big question is the one you were covering, which final drive? 3:70, 3:90, 4:11, 4:44?
Honestly I'm thinking 3:70 with a nice short 1st-5th to take advantage of all the torque. All though the 4:44 would be a destroyer of tires

Rear Diff- I'm going to run the R180 just to try and distribute some weight to the rear of the car. I could build a stout R160 but with the additional weight up front I need to try and get the bias as close to even as possible.

As for engine management I've been looking at a few options, I could do the stock ECU and have the immobilizer disabled by an Ecutek dealer but that still leaves the can-bus issue (Open ECU guys are you listening?!!). The hydra looks like the best option as of right now because of it's "plug and play" status.

-Dylan
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Old 01-24-2008, 11:10 PM   #103
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Dylan,

You'll want your highway cruising RPM's at around 2800 for fuel economy. I think less than that and the engine will be a bit of a dog. I'm running the RA gears with the 4.44 final drive and struggle to get better than 22mph on the highway.

Engine mounts: I had some Group N mounts modified by welding a plate with a bolt pattern that matches the EZ.

ECU: There are two options. I'm running the Hydra. It was the only choice when I got mine running. It will not, however, run the AVCS in closed loop mode. Link is in the process of making the G3 available for the EZ30R with close loop feedback, but you need to pony up for the professional package. With the AVCS non-functional, my car is severely hobbled above 5500 rpms. I will be making the switch to the Link when I can afford it.

Andy
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Old 01-24-2008, 11:29 PM   #104
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Andy-

Fuel mileage isn't a big concern for me, I've got a stock 96' Legacy for a daily

Now from what I was told the new version of the hydra will run the fbw and avcs and alcs?

I was just over at the OpenECU forums looking through some of the can bus info and am wondering if someone can figure out how to eliminate certain systems from the bus. If this is possible we may have our answer to the stock ECU.

-Dylan
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:46 AM   #105
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Which version of the Hydra? As I understand it, the Hydra 2.5 does not have any firmware available that will run the AVCS closed loop on a 6-cylinder engine. AVLS is not a problem as it is an on/off switch rather than a solenoid duty cycle problem. As I understand it, Hydra has chosen to do their development of features for 4-cylinder platforms and hang us 6+ cylinder folks out to dry. For STi's, drive by wire and AVCS closed loop control is already a reality. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case for us.
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Old 01-25-2008, 08:34 AM   #106
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Phil from Element claims to have figured out how to tune the for AVCS in open loop mode. I guess I'll find out next month if all goes well. But this talk of OpenECU and disabling certain unnecessary systems is making me wonder if I should keep my stock ecu or not.


Mick
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:38 PM   #107
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^^ That's what I was told too.

I PM'd Colby to see what he thought about "kicking systems off the bus"

I hope he has encouraging news

-Dylan
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Old 01-25-2008, 10:17 PM   #108
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I know Phil can run it open loop. Its not a simple operation and requires an o-scope and a stock engine on a dyno to log the solenoid duty cycle sequence compared to cam position. This will take, literally, hours of work to get the duty cycles correct and then hours of work to tune the engine. Then, if something goes haywire, there's no feedback to the ECU and it may break stuff.

I'm a pessimist, but it seems like a lot of work and a lot of risk.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:43 AM   #109
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Well one good thing for Mick. I was reading around and it looks like when you get it back to GA you'll just wind up doing like they do in Cali. A referee'd sniffer test and a visual inspection. Do you guys have a Bureau of Automotive Repair down there? That's why happenes in Cali. Since they aren't as strict in GA as in Cali I don't see why you wouldn't pass aslong as you had at least a usable cat hooked up to clean out the exhaust to pass the sniffer test. Unless you went catless? Then you might be screwed.
Okay now that I know it's MAF in stock set up I just need to measure the throtle body of the EZ to see if I can borrow my CAI so I can get some good air flow. Anyone know if the EJ compatablity of flywheels? I figured they would but wanted to know what everone else is using. I don't think I want to go with a crazy 600WHP application light 14 or 17 or what ever pounds one, but maybe a just lighter mid point form stock to help reduce rotational weight since I'll have it sitting there for a while.
-Gaddis
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Old 01-26-2008, 07:48 PM   #110
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Flywheels are interchangable with EJ series engines. I'm using an Exedy Hyper Twin setup for a WRX with no troubles.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:56 PM   #111
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Hmm, the AVCS solenoids are constantly cycling while the engine is running so there really is no sequence that I know of (remembering my Ver.8 logs), couldn't you take a simple data log of a stock car and enter the duty cycle trace into the hydra and have a good base map? I'm just guessing at this point.

-Dylan

Quote:
Originally Posted by adhowe70 View Post
I know Phil can run it open loop. Its not a simple operation and requires an o-scope and a stock engine on a dyno to log the solenoid duty cycle sequence compared to cam position. This will take, literally, hours of work to get the duty cycles correct and then hours of work to tune the engine. Then, if something goes haywire, there's no feedback to the ECU and it may break stuff.

I'm a pessimist, but it seems like a lot of work and a lot of risk.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:04 PM   #112
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You would be able to mimic the stock system under that particular pull of load vs. rpms. The cam angle will want to be changed with rpms and load. Its a 3-D map. Knowing one path across the map can't help you fill in the rest of the data. What would you do with the duty cycle when you encounter a situation that wasn't tested? Do you use the sample duty cycle data for all load levels at a particular rpm? It would be crude and inefficient, but likely better than what I'm running now - AVCS disabled.

On the other hand, if you spent hours on a dyno pulling cam angle and duty cycle data simultaneously, you could create a rough map of duty cycle vs. cam angle. This would involve sitting at a constant load and rpm range long enough to determine the pattern required to hold the cam angle. After establishing that particular point, you could move on to another cam angle. After going through the entire range of cam angles, you could use the same tools to plot the desired cam angle on the load-rpm 3-D map. Take these two sets of data and build the open loop map in the Hydra.
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Old 01-29-2008, 06:30 PM   #113
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^^ I think you're on to something

Having run AVCS disabled in my Ver.7 till I hammered out the wiring (back in 02' )I know it sucks having it disabled and the intake cams sitting in the retarded position.

-Dylan
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:19 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
^^ I think you're on to something

Having run AVCS disabled in my Ver.7 till I hammered out the wiring (back in 02' )I know it sucks having it disabled and the intake cams sitting in the retarded position.

-Dylan
Which makes you feeling? .... retarded! LOL LOL LOL! Okay bad joke. Did the Outback or Tribeca come with the Si-Drive system? I haven't had time lately to hunt down if it did or not. (last week I work 60hrs. Hooray for over time!) I've read that Perrin was thinking of using the Si-Drive to essentually run 3 separate maps for the 08' STi. Figured if I didn't use the eManage I might go with this plan(provided it came with the Si-Drive.) for tuning out optimun power and econemy after everything is running with light base mods of pulley, CAI(depending),exhaust, flywheel. Gonna run a little off from stock.
-Gaddis
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:36 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slack View Post
The EZ30R uses MAF.

Andy, you just made me think of something. Could the ECU be looking for the speed signals from the ABS sensors and transmission for VDC? I'm pretty sure the H6 Outbacks all have VDC. Without the entire VDC system, it might cause the the ECU to stay in limp mode.

I wish all this stuff wasn't so complicated. There were tons of people who warned me in the beginning that this swap would be crazy to attempt. They were right.

Mick
I'm also wondering about this as well... I plan on cutting out the VDC system from the harness and just running without that or the auto trans computer like I did to my 2.5 swap. I sure hope my blasted car runs!
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:39 AM   #116
Seraphinwolf
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Originally Posted by kingbobdole View Post
I'm also wondering about this as well... I plan on cutting out the VDC system from the harness and just running without that or the auto trans computer like I did to my 2.5 swap. I sure hope my blasted car runs!
In your "death wedge"? I'd rather go with upgrading a car. A small price to pay if you're going the distance of just getting the EZ in and running. Maybe a EG33 would be better. Have you considered that as an option?
-Gaddis
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:45 AM   #117
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Throtle-By-Wire delete on EZ with stock ECU. Any forsee able issue in poticular to look at here. I know there are the Imobilizer ignition get around floating around now that so many newer cars have them, but what about the interface witht he ECU? Unless is something really easy I'll likely still just set up with TBW and get it in and running first. Maybe this is something to check with Unabomber on? See what he knows.
-Gaddis
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Old 01-31-2008, 01:43 AM   #118
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The major issue with TBW delete on the stock ECU appears to be idle control. Maybe Mick has some more information on this, but I think the stock ECU controls idle with throttle position (it has the means, why not?) There wasn't any alternate means of idle control on the TBW throttle body that was on my engine when I got it - the only plug on the throttle body was at the servo to control throttle position and no alternate air passages for idle control were obvious.
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Old 01-31-2008, 03:35 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphinwolf View Post
Which makes you feeling? .... retarded! LOL LOL LOL! Okay bad joke. Did the Outback or Tribeca come with the Si-Drive system? I haven't had time lately to hunt down if it did or not. (last week I work 60hrs. Hooray for over time!) I've read that Perrin was thinking of using the Si-Drive to essentually run 3 separate maps for the 08' STi. Figured if I didn't use the eManage I might go with this plan(provided it came with the Si-Drive.) for tuning out optimun power and econemy after everything is running with light base mods of pulley, CAI(depending),exhaust, flywheel. Gonna run a little off from stock.
-Gaddis
Ouch, that joke makes babies cry

The legacy and I believe the Tribeca were both available with SI-Drive.

-Dylan
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Old 01-31-2008, 04:35 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
Ouch, that joke makes babies cry

The legacy and I believe the Tribeca were both available with SI-Drive.

-Dylan
Yes yes many babies cried to make that joke. It's actually made of their very tears.
Anywho this might be actually helpful news. As I stated(I think I did?) Perrin's tuning of their 08' STi thread someone brought up the idea and they agreed it might be useful to basicly remap each of the Si-Drive settings and be able to run different tunes as needed. For instance max HP is nice but sometimes you don't want to fill the tank every 2 days(or less) cause you use the car as you're daily driver. It only takes around a minute for the system to defer to the alternate setting and should be nice to have as many versitile options as possible. One of the reason I opted for doing a 6 swap and not just the old "Buy crashed STi. Put in my car. Tune for 600WHP. Cry every time I fill the tank driving too spirited." I guess I'll start adding that to my reading regiment to be ready and see what I can do. Like Mick before me i hope what I hit as a road block and be over come by the next.
-Gaddis
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Old 01-31-2008, 08:58 PM   #121
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I would love to use the SI-Drive like that

We need to get one of the Open ECU guys in here for this discussion to see if it's doable.

-Dylan
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:37 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Seraphinwolf View Post
In your "death wedge"? I'd rather go with upgrading a car. A small price to pay if you're going the distance of just getting the EZ in and running. Maybe a EG33 would be better. Have you considered that as an option?
-Gaddis
Actually... Jeffast owns the "death wedge", or at least used to, he sold it. I own the "Cheese wedge"(it's yellow, DUH) and there are a few reasons I wouldn't go with any other car. Firstly, I love my car. Second it has more engine room then any other Subaru other then the SVX, my XT came with an H-6. Thirdly, I want to be the only one :P There already is an EG33 in an XT-6... I bought my EZ30 to put into my XT to make it more unique. And last, my XT is lighter then an impreza... much lighter.

So yeah, I'm gonna do it.. I'll probably cut all the VDC crap out and run it stock. Luckily I didn't get the TBW so I'm good there. My EJ25''d Rx runs great and typically has about 6 codes in the ECU.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:55 AM   #123
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What's an XT weigh?

I have to ballast my Impreza up to my legal race weight of 2625. If I made it a "real" race car and gutted all the street legal stuff I have in it, I could get down below 2400 pretty easily. I think I could even get down to 2300 if I worked hard at it.

Regarding the EZ, the basic EZ30 should be pretty easy to make work. Its the late model "R" engine that is giving us all fits.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:12 PM   #124
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I thought about dropping in an standard EZ30 in our GC6 race car project just because the wiring was simpler

-Dylan

BTW- If anyone is interested I have a full EZ30 out of an 03' Legacy with harness and ECU for sale

Last edited by DS1; 02-02-2008 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 02-03-2008, 07:38 PM   #125
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Quote:
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What's an XT weigh?

I have to ballast my Impreza up to my legal race weight of 2625. If I made it a "real" race car and gutted all the street legal stuff I have in it, I could get down below 2400 pretty easily. I think I could even get down to 2300 if I worked hard at it.

Regarding the EZ, the basic EZ30 should be pretty easy to make work. Its the late model "R" engine that is giving us all fits.
My Xt weighs about 2400 with all the bells and whistles there... A/C, Power steering the whole nine yards. My '88 Rx with the 2.5 weighs 2600... the older cars are very light.
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