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Old 08-15-2007, 01:51 AM   #1
Equilibrium Tuning
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Default 05 STI + FP Green + EWG + C16 = 388whp @ 5000ft elevation!

I went on a little tuning trip to Reno last weekend and figured I'd post my favorite car of the weekend.

This is an 05 STI with an FP Green (8cm, 3" inlet), Deatschwerks 850cc sidefeed injectors (soon to be released), walbro, APS inlet pipe, APS 70mm CAI, APS TMIC, Hallman MBC, Perrin EL headers, Catless TBE, Tial 44mm EWG, AP V2.

Tuning at elevation is very interesting and educational. Its tough to get decent spool up there and you really have to take a bit of a different approach to optimize overall power.

We started with a mild 91 Octane tune at 20psi peak. This map was very quick and lots of fun to drive. There is certainly more lag at 5k feet but as long as you're above 4k RPM, throttle response is excellent and there is absolutely no lag between gears. I attribute this mostly to the free flowing intake and TMIC. Here's the plot for 91 Octane:



We then put in 5 gallons of C16 and started dialing in the race gas map:


We ended up with a peak of 25psi tapering off to about 20psi by redline. The turbo actually wouldn't make any more boost at this elevation even with the EWG completely shut. I set a/f around 11.8-11.9 under full load and started advancing timing. The car kept taking more and more advance without any hint of knock. In fact there wasn't a single knock event during the entire C16 tune. We kept testing extremely hard and quick shifting, very high loads in 5th gear and there was never a single knock event.

After a while the additional advance wasn't making the same huge gains, so we decided to leave it at that. We could have likely hit 400whp, but the car was already scary fast and having this kind of performance with such a safe and consistent tune is just awesome. 1st gear kicks hard and is over extremely quickly, a quick shift to 2nd doesn't chirp, but actually lights up the tires, and another quick shift chirps 3rd gear! In general 1st-4th are gone in a fury before you know it and 5th just pins you in the seat for as long as you dare stay on it. I was extremely impressed that we could get this level of performance at altitude and still maintain great throttle response above 4k RPM. And all this on a TMIC .

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 08-15-2007, 01:59 AM   #2
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so since on your dyno 330whp gets one into the mid-high 11's, dare I saw this car at sea level might be whooping some major arse?
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Old 08-15-2007, 02:03 AM   #3
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Ed IS the man!!
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Old 08-15-2007, 02:12 AM   #4
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i like your aps set up....goign to copy
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Old 08-15-2007, 03:57 AM   #5
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In general, wouldn't you be able to squeeze more power out of a FMIC setup?
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Old 08-15-2007, 04:44 AM   #6
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what kind of dyno is this on? I know a dyno is just a tuning tool, but the #s' seem low. I am just saying this as my car has a similar set up, except internally gated and a dr525 fmic, put down 392/390 @ 2000' and the temp was 114 degrees....on 100 octane. My car also had a problem holding 25psi on the 100 map, but the culprit seems to have been a weak waste gate actuator.... wouldn't hold the waste gate closed and would taper boost as well.
Funny thing is the 91 map is comparable to mine, minus loss of hp/trq due to altitude 342 whp.

BTW .... i know all about altitude and bad gas unfortunately since I live in Vegas. I could only imagine what double the altitude would do to my car
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Old 08-15-2007, 04:49 AM   #7
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lol the low numbers is always gonna be a losing battle since everyone is used to see higher reading dynos. this dyno reads low, stock stis do 215-225whp tops.
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Boost? View Post
what kind of dyno is this on? I know a dyno is just a tuning tool, but the #s' seem low. I am just saying this as my car has a similar set up, except internally gated and a dr525 fmic, put down 392/390 @ 2000' and the temp was 114 degrees....on 100 octane. My car also had a problem holding 25psi on the 100 map, but the culprit seems to have been a weak waste gate actuator.... wouldn't hold the waste gate closed and would taper boost as well.
Funny thing is the 91 map is comparable to mine, minus loss of hp/trq due to altitude 342 whp.

BTW .... i know all about altitude and bad gas unfortunately since I live in Vegas. I could only imagine what double the altitude would do to my car
As has been stated, this software reads almost dead on with the lower reading mustang and DD dyno's. Stock STI's make 215-225whp, 270whp is good for 107-108mph traps and 330whp is good for 115-117mph traps.

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamBOMB_STi View Post
lol the low numbers is always gonna be a losing battle since everyone is used to see higher reading dynos. this dyno reads low, stock stis do 215-225whp tops.
thats why I asked, the dyno I was tuned on base lines a sti @225whp
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Old 08-15-2007, 10:53 AM   #10
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Killer Ed!
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:14 PM   #11
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Was there an AWD dyno in Reno last weekend??? I was under the impression that the closest dyno was is Sac-town... Just curious..
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Old 08-15-2007, 01:13 PM   #12
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Ed's dyno is software.
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Old 08-15-2007, 01:58 PM   #13
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What kind of timing were you able to run at that altitude on the c16 map? Being able to hold 20psi at 5k ASL, is strong....do you think it was due to the ext. wg? Would say an 8cm internally gated Green hold similar psi?

And this dyno software of yours, is it available publicily? How does it work, off of acceleration?
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Old 08-15-2007, 02:54 PM   #14
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Very nice Ed! What gear were your plots done on?

Shame you can't hold boost on the top end!

-Jorge
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Old 08-15-2007, 02:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmundu View Post
What kind of timing were you able to run at that altitude on the c16 map? Being able to hold 20psi at 5k ASL, is strong....do you think it was due to the ext. wg? Would say an 8cm internally gated Green hold similar psi?

And this dyno software of yours, is it available publicily? How does it work, off of acceleration?
It's most likely going to work like other commercially available road dyno software out there, working off of an RPM pickup. Then you feed in atmospheric information, barometric pressure, coefficient of drag, gear ratio's, weight, etc. and it will be able to spit out a very faithful and accurate HP number, no less consistent then any other dyno. The key is in getting the inputs right.

Years before I started working here I actually used a very similar product that yielded similar results http://www.roaddyno.com/ <-- was cost effective and repeatable.

-Jorge
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Old 08-15-2007, 03:08 PM   #16
Equilibrium Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezy1678 View Post
Was there an AWD dyno in Reno last weekend??? I was under the impression that the closest dyno was is Sac-town... Just curious..
This is from my road dyno software that reads very almost dead on with lower reading mustang dyno's. It works off any log that has RPM data and a time reference and using parameters such as tire size, weight, gearing, aero data, etc, it calculates the car's on-road acceleration and determines the whp and wtq from that. Its extremely consistent and repeatable and the numbers have been backed up by track times many times.

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 08-15-2007, 03:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmundu View Post
What kind of timing were you able to run at that altitude on the c16 map? Being able to hold 20psi at 5k ASL, is strong....do you think it was due to the ext. wg? Would say an 8cm internally gated Green hold similar psi?

And this dyno software of yours, is it available publicily? How does it work, off of acceleration?

On the C16, the car is running 21-22* on spoolup and as much as 28* by redline. The amazing part is that it was still taking more and more without a single knock event, we just didn't feel the need to push it any further.

I actually would have expected this turbo to hold more boost, but I suppose 20psi is good at 5k ft. I'm not sure if the EWG is helping in that regard... all it was doing was staying completely closed .

As far as the road dyno software, this is something I developed about 4 years ago for my own personal use. I started with some other road dyno options available but was unhappy with some of their shortcomings so I decided to write my own. I don't make it available to the public mainly to keep the numbers and results consistent and trustworthy. Its just too easy for someone to do a pull down hill or fudge some of the parameters to get higher numbers. Once that happens enough, my own numbers will start to mean very little. Anyway, for the time being I have decided to keep this as a proprietary tool. I have offered services to people where they e-mail me some logs along with the necessary data, then I plot and send them the power curves.

-- Ed

Last edited by Equilibrium Tuning; 08-15-2007 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 08-15-2007, 03:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P&L Motorsports Inc. View Post
Very nice Ed! What gear were your plots done on?

Shame you can't hold boost on the top end!

-Jorge
All my STI plots are done in 4th gear. I know what you're thinking... a bit laggy . This was definitely laggier than I generally expect for a Green, but considering the non-coated headers and elevation, I think its right on. I generally find that bigger turbo cars spool up a good 400-500 RPM later up there. Once they spool, however, you can really make the torque even on our 91 octane which is sometimes very difficult to do down at sea level.

-- Ed
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Old 08-15-2007, 03:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaus View Post
All my STI plots are done in 4th gear. I know what you're thinking... a bit laggy . This was definitely laggier than I generally expect for a Green, but considering the non-coated headers and elevation, I think its right on. I generally find that bigger turbo cars spool up a good 400-500 RPM later up there. Once they spool, however, you can really make the torque even on our 91 octane which is sometimes very difficult to do down at sea level.

-- Ed
Honestly, no I wasn't thinking anything bad, having done some stuff up there myself, I think it's a pretty damn good job for that housing.

I can give credit where it's due ya know.

-Jorge
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Old 08-15-2007, 03:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaus View Post
On the C16, the car is running 21-22* on spoolup and as much as 28* by redline. The amazing part is that it was still taking more and more without a single knock event, we just didn't feel the need to push it any further.

I actually would have expected this turbo to hold more boost, but I suppose 20psi is good at 5k ft. I'm not sure if the EWG is helping in that regard... all it was doing was staying completely closed .

-- Ed
Dear lord ....that is some timing even on c16! I would think on the 91 they would be lower, but even taking the usual 6* or so off, that is still some impressive timing advance. I wonder if the thinner air allows some additional timing....
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Old 08-15-2007, 03:38 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by P&L Motorsports Inc. View Post
...
Years before I started working here I actually used a very similar product that yielded similar results http://www.roaddyno.com/ <-- was cost effective and repeatable.

-Jorge
Thanks for the link Jorge...I'll have to check into it
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Old 08-15-2007, 04:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P&L Motorsports Inc. View Post
Honestly, no I wasn't thinking anything bad, having done some stuff up there myself, I think it's a pretty damn good job for that housing.

I can give credit where it's due ya know.

-Jorge

I really wasn't taking it in any negative way. The boost threshold actually surprised me as well because smaller turbo cars tend to not be nearly as heavily effected. The nice thing is that even though the threshold is relatively high, boost and throttle response is excellent above about 4500 RPM. There is almost no lag on quick throttle tip-in and quick shifts.


Also, I almost forgot to mention one of my favorite parts about this car. It holds a completely stable and effortless idle at 750RPM and drives completely like stock. Looking at the idle and drivability you would never guess that its running 850cc injectors and a big MAF intake. I attribute this to the combination of the APS 70mm which is the best big MAF pull-through intake I've worked with and of course the soon to be released Deatschwerks 850cc sidefeeds. These injectors were just awesome. Extremely easy to control at idle and low flow rates and completely consistent and linear operation. While in Reno I also tuned a couple cars with PE850's and the straight comparison really hit home how well these injectors run. These days I can get the PE's idling and running pretty well with enough time, but there is still an occasional jump or stumble at idle and unsightly drivability issues. With the Deatschwerks I spent all of 5-10 minutes getting them to idle just like the stockers and the rest of the fuel map fell into place quickly. This is by far my favorite 850cc offering available.

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 08-15-2007, 04:15 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmundu View Post
Dear lord ....that is some timing even on c16! I would think on the 91 they would be lower, but even taking the usual 6* or so off, that is still some impressive timing advance. I wonder if the thinner air allows some additional timing....
The 91 map is running about 13-14* on spoolup and about 19* by redline. I found that the knock threshold is definitely improved at altitude and allows for significantly more advance. Of course you actually have to run that additional advance if you want to optimize power at elevation.

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 08-15-2007, 04:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaus View Post
...I generally find that bigger turbo cars spool up a good 400-500 RPM later up there...
I see exactly the same thing here in Bend. I'm tuned at sea-level, and everything happens significantly slower and lower once I'm back up here. Power, spool, you name it. It's just the way it is.
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Old 08-15-2007, 08:32 PM   #25
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Ed, I find it so relieving that in a world where so many tuners let people go with tunes that are are basically altered base maps you take the time to do really work with your customer. If I was still going with my sti I know I would take it to you.
I do have one question, and I know you covered it with UltimateLurker's thread, and my many aim convos, but this customer is using a mbc. Will he need a retune when he comes to sea level or if temps change dramatically as they do in reno. I am just confused because on one hand all the dsm world and evos use mbc for their amazing spool up, but its such a stigma on these forums. Do you think if someone drove through a lot of elevation and temperature changes, would a mbc be a bad idea? Thanks so much!
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