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Old 12-12-2007, 08:25 PM   #51
richard donovan
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i was wondering if i should get longer pins so that the manifold will be linged up proper, but i think it might be the machinist side of me talking
becasue when i go to install these on my bare block i'm goignt o gasket match it.


Richard
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:54 AM   #52
GrimmSpeed
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i found the easiest way when installing our triple thick spacers is to put a tiny piece of temporary tape over the edge to hold the top oem gasket in its place. the pin will still hold the bottom oem gasket and the spacer, but its not long enough to hold the top oem gasket. once you have the IM bolts lined up through the new spacers then just peel the little piece of tape off and there ya go.

Justin
www.grimmspeed.com
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:04 PM   #53
richard donovan
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sounds great
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Old 01-24-2008, 11:23 AM   #54
GrimmSpeed
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sorry guys..i know i was supposed to do an E85 test in a bucket but i got super busy with the ewg kit release. i'm going to stop at the gas station on the way to the shop here and pick up a little gas can and some e85.

i'll bring zee camera too.
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Old 01-24-2008, 12:41 PM   #55
LTracer
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Posted this over at rs25 but thought it might be helpful here as well for us new-age DBW guys (05+) as it doesn't appear anyone's thoroughly reviewed yet.

Took the time to install both the 8MM phenolic IM spacer and Group A TB spacer over the weekend with the bro (ASE Mech). We tackled the IM spacer first as we knew it was going to be the more difficult of the two spacers to install.

Car: '05 (DBW) 2.5RS Sedan w/ Injen CAI, block back Borla/Stromung exhaust, etc. Conservatively tuned with ECUflash.

Phenolic IM Spacer Install:
Undid the manifold bolts as well as spark plug wires, TB, vacuum lines, etc to make room and clearance installing the spacer. Everything went extremely smooth until we went to remove the EGR tube (exhaust recirculation tube that runs from the driver side header to the bottom of the driver side intake manifold). We initially tried to completely remove the tube but quickly realize we wouldn't be able to get it back on with the added height of the 8mm phenolic spacer. The tube is stainless and extremely stiff, there would literally be no way to get it back on and threaded correctly if the spacer was installed. To make a long story short we removed everything attached to the IM and ended up creating a clamp/crowbar suspension over the front of the car to lift up the manifold by the attached EGR tube. With a few hundred pounds of force (not real precise, but considering our setup it's tough to gage) on the EGR tube it eventually molded and bent up enough to slide the sandwich of two OEM gaskets and the 8MM phenolic spacer into place. After peeling and scraper the old one off (with care not to get anything into the intake port) we slide the spacer on. OKAY, one side done. The passenger side went alot smoother as it was completely free until we tried to slide the 8MM spacer over the pins on the block. The very front pin (closest to radiator) does not allow the 8MM spacer as it tops out at the engine coolant output tube. We did some small modification with a dremel and grinder to allow it to fit. OKAY, second side done.

Time = 4 hours. (3 of which was spent reworking the EGR tube.) Difficult install as a result of the pesky EGR tube.


Group A TB Spacer:
Falcon already hit this product pretty well. Install was straightforward and easy with two sets of hands.

Driving Impressions:
Reset ECU and allowed to learn up before any serious testing. Noticeable power gains across all RPMs (2000-6200). Torque is greater at lower RPM's, seems to have brought back MOST low-end torque lost through the CAI. Pulls harder above 3500 and is especially noticeable in 3rd and 4th gear. Engine sound seems louder above 3500 as well, seems to change the acoustics of the intake. (for the better in my opinion). Manifold is much cooler as a result of the IM spacer. Haven't tested fuel mileage yet, but I suspect a slight increase as well. Butt-dyno says 3-5HP, another recommended product, minus the install difficulty of the IM spacer.

Last edited by LTracer; 02-10-2008 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:08 PM   #56
williaty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTracer View Post
Driving Impressions:
Reset ECU and allowed to learn up before any serious testing. Noticeable power gains across all RPMs (2000-6200). Torque is greater at lower RPM's, seems to have brought back MOST low-end torque lost through the CAI. Pulls harder above 3500 and is especially noticeable in 3rd and 4th gear. Engine sound seems louder above 3500 as well, seems to change the acoustics of the intake. (for the better in my opinion). Manifold is much cooler as a result of the IM spacer. Intake temps are roughly 15 F cooler as indicated by open source logging. (cooler air is more dense thus more O2 thus more power - if properly tuned). Haven't tested fuel mileage yet, but I suspect a slight increase as well. Butt-dyno says 3-5HP, another recommended product, minus the install difficulty of the IM spacer.
I can't think of any way to ask this and not sound like an *******, sorry...

Do you have any data (such as before and after MAFv, g/sec, or g/rev, etc) that backs this up or is it pure speculation? Obviously not asking about the temps since you have data for that.
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:35 PM   #57
LTracer
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Thanks for asking (unlike some I won't get defensive over 'proving' it). Absolutely no data whatsoever aside from noted 'butt-dyno' and temp increase.

Dynos for pre-DBW seems to suggest a 2HP gain from the TB spacer alone:
http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthrea...le+Body+Spacer

So to clarify for all above made claims my impressions were never validated by dyno or time test. Intake temp decreased 10-15 holding ambient temp constant. In hindsight I should have logged and saved more parameters than intake temp. I 'swear' I can feel the difference though. (I'll flame myself now so no one else does). Bottomline: highly recommended this product (and phenolic IM) to any DBW owner with the technical expertise to correctly install (or find a reputable shop that will). Really though the TBS isn't that difficult of an install...
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Old 01-25-2008, 10:42 PM   #58
GrimmSpeed
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ok i got the test started for you guys...


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1434696
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:24 AM   #59
RaceFaceXC
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Originally Posted by IllNastyImpreza View Post
I think you are verry confused my friend.... I myself would rather drive a honduh than spend my own hard earned cash on an EL header.....ok well maybee not...but close





I am completely against sacrafising that awesome unique boxer growl

EL headers FTL
Go check out a dyno chart for a TWE EL header...
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Old 01-27-2008, 03:47 AM   #60
Patrick Olsen
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Holy quote from the past, Batman!
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Old 01-27-2008, 04:04 AM   #61
Patrick Olsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTracer View Post
Dynos for pre-DBW seems to suggest a 2HP gain from the TB spacer alone:
http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthrea...le+Body+Spacer
I'm not blaming you, LTracer, just quoting your post. How in the world did Touge Tuning create those dyno graphs? The RPM numbers are equally spaced across the bottom of each graph, but the difference between successive numbers is not consistent. For instance, on the "after" graph, it goes 3007.09 to 3144.58 - a difference of roughly 137.5rpm - then to 3236.93 - a difference of only 92.4rpm. Those graphs are pretty much make believe as far as I can tell.

Anyway, interesting to see the difference in intake air charge that you measured, LT. Where is the IAT sensor actually located? I would guess it's up towards the throttle body, in which case the temperature difference at the intake port (after the air has flown all the way through the intake manifold) would be even greater.

Pat
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:37 AM   #62
brianjglas
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I will probably be rebuilding my '99 2.5 DOHC, it is stock from a Legacy Outback; I was trying to figure out if it would make a noticeable difference to install these spacers with my engine or if one would only really feel the difference with a turbo and/or mods and tuning?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:39 PM   #63
GrimmSpeed
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the IAT sensor is located in the MAF..which sucks because you cant use it to get the temp difference reading of the phenolic pieces because they are after the fact.
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:48 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
Holy quote from the past, Batman!
I was like.... "I said that ??.... O yeah I did say that "
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:15 PM   #65
LTracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
I'm not blaming you, LTracer, just quoting your post. How in the world did Touge Tuning create those dyno graphs? The RPM numbers are equally spaced across the bottom of each graph, but the difference between successive numbers is not consistent. For instance, on the "after" graph, it goes 3007.09 to 3144.58 - a difference of roughly 137.5rpm - then to 3236.93 - a difference of only 92.4rpm. Those graphs are pretty much make believe as far as I can tell.

Anyway, interesting to see the difference in intake air charge that you measured, LT. Where is the IAT sensor actually located? I would guess it's up towards the throttle body, in which case the temperature difference at the intake port (after the air has flown all the way through the intake manifold) would be even greater.

Pat
Yeah, I questioned the validity of the Touge dyno as well and remained skeptical. If only I had the time/money to uninstall TB spacer/dyno car/reinstall TB spacer /dyno. Seeing as Grimm discounted my intake temp statement (IAT is before IM, must have been another variable that I didn't account for...) I swear I did the ambient vs. IAT math correctly.

I think the best way to test temp difference would be us an IR temp. reader on the intake manifold before and after holding everything else as constant as possible. Grimm, didn't you have some numbers written down on the temp improvement gained by the 8MM spacer?
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:59 AM   #66
GrimmSpeed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTracer View Post

I think the best way to test temp difference would be us an IR temp. reader on the intake manifold before and after holding everything else as constant as possible. Grimm, didn't you have some numbers written down on the temp improvement gained by the 8MM spacer?
yeah we had some numbers from the dispersant i believe. we used a thermocoupler for those. as far as thermal spacer temp changes if you guys wanted to test, i would agree that the two best options are to either take an IR temp of the before and after or stick a thermocouple on the intake manifold itself. the latter would be better because you can do it while driving where as the IR temp you could only do at idle.

Justin
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