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Old 08-22-2007, 09:12 AM   #26
mick_the_ginge
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Don't rev to 9K, 8K max IMO. I was reving my very old built 2.0L to ~9K, spun out a set of bearings good and proper.

8K it seemed fine, but the log where is spun the rod bearings out showed I was shifting at 8800 rpm @ 28 psi on a GT30R with a .63 housing. Then again that was on the stock oil pump, all bearings showed lack of oil damage scars
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:14 AM   #27
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well mick, the difference is fred is doing a full built motor...everything should be blue printed, included bearing tolerances (by the way, what did you have seth put them at?)...the 12mm pump should help a bit. It needs to be massaged and shimmed though.
I also don't think he will need to spin past 8500 as his powerband will be done by then...
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:27 AM   #28
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Yep, I'm far too conservative in my old age Spin it and see what happens.

Jarrad at PDXTuning would always spin his JDM full AVCS to 8.5K and had no issues, but he was only running a VF39 which was out of puff at 7.5k and boost had dropped off to 10 psi by 8.5K.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:18 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by japslapr View Post
Jeesuz.

Please.. both of you remove your pocket protectors and tell me to.. or NOT to rev to 9k. LOL.... there was some talk going on that I wasn't even sure remained in the english language. Sounded more like modern day shorthand to me...lol, roflmao,ttyl,, bmep, imep, type stuff.

With the brains that have entered the room... you have to be able to give me a reasonable answer or calculated response. With a mods list I can provide.... I'm sure you could punch in some sort of algorithum (sp?)... TQ vs load, minus atmospheric pressure, divided by manifold pressure, sin, cos, bmep type ****.



This is WAY beyond me... I just want to make 450+awhp and run a 10.999999
Haha well the title of the thread was who says when, it should have been what 77 factors say when.

Judging by this response you already have all your parts that you're going to use...you're not looking for the engineering explanations, you just want to know if your shopping list will do the job, is that correct?

In that case, since you already have everything you're going to lose and you're not trying to change things...put it together, throw it on a dyno. Do a theoretical overlay of the powerband vs your gears in mile per hour.

Meaning, do your dyno pulls and tuning. Say you rev it out to 9 grand. Put that dyno plot on a mph graph as a first gear pull - using RPM, gear ratio, final gear and tire size (the curve will be different in reality due to load and such but it will give you a starting point). Then do the same thing with second gear. Voila! You have your shift point. It will most likely be the highest in first and move progressively lower as you go through the gears.

If it says shift at 7200, shift at 7200, if it says shift at 9100, then hope you brought enough engine to the party and shift at 9100.

For some reason people like RPMs, they assume its faster, really most of the time it's slower (at the very end of the powerband in high gear) AND hurting their engine.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:40 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark@RealStreet View Post
For some reason people like RPMs, they assume its faster, really most of the time it's slower (at the very end of the powerband in high gear) AND hurting their engine.
and that is all because of torque...ironic I say that...wonder how many people raised their eye brow..?..
higher rpm's allow for shorter gearing at the axle...also allows for less shifting and more time in gear which you know to make for a faster car too.
It's only worth while so long as you have your torque curve is there.
Also making torque this way tends to lead to fewer blown up drivetrain components
It all boils down to time in gear and torque at the ground. Get the two however you can.

and yes, Fred has already bought all of his parts and is now trying to see what his decisions are going to yield him and what they are capable of...
first gear I might honestly say for you to spin to 9k to get the turbo spooled...but like mark said, your shift point will fall sooner with each gear
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:07 AM   #31
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Agreed my friend. It really does fall back on gearing, my post was far too much of a blanket statement.

I just normally shake my head when the guy with the joe blow engine build (the ones that use one of my least favorite phrases: "fully built" - when they have a shelf piston, rod and bearing) start talking about an arbitrary redline (8, 9, 10,000). Fred isn't "the guy" I'm talking about, but I'm sure we've all encountered "that guy" before, haha.

Good luck Fred, let us know how it turns out.
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:16 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
keep in mind he's a 2.0...so 8k with a 30r will probably be more likely to be his shift point. if he has good cams it may carry a bit better
Didn't catch that.

I guess im stuck in 2.5l land

there's still a big difference in 8k vs. 9k though. I'm sticking with mick on this one...8k should be plenty. that's IMO.
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:06 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark@RealStreet View Post
I just normally shake my head when the guy with the joe blow engine build (the ones that use one of my least favorite phrases: "fully built" - when they have a shelf piston, rod and bearing) start talking about an arbitrary redline (8, 9, 10,000). Fred isn't "the guy" I'm talking about, but I'm sure we've all encountered "that guy" before, haha.
yeah, and the crazy part is honda boys can do that...all day...to get to 13k you have blue print though...yes, I know 3 local honda guys who spin to 13k

Fred, can you get a spec build sheet from abacus for the work you've had done...measurements and clearances for you bearings, balance specs on the rods, rings, pins and pistons...crank too...piston clearances too.
Reason being is we had-had some work done by them that turned out to be rather half ass. Let's just say I don't recommend them to anyone and all my builds go elsewhere.
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:28 PM   #34
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You live where a lot of the NHRA AM guys are from so you'll have a lot of high rpm stuff since they are having to make the absolute most from their displacement.

A good example would be researching the history of Champ Cars...some of their boost pressure limitation changes (increasing maximum allowed boost) have been to lower the RPM limit of the cars, it shifts their whole powerband to the left and makes the engines last longer.
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Old 08-22-2007, 04:02 PM   #35
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Thanks guys for the responses. This thread actually turned into something worth reading. We all know this isn't always the case... it is appreciated when it happens tho.

I have heard some not so positive things about Abacus. I have to say I have heard some very good things as well. Kienan and Vern is confident in Seths' work so I took heed to that. Every shop that has been around for awhile and really tried pushing anything at all has broken something. I've seen with my own eye's broken PPG gears, and have heard about blown motors from damn near every local (an not local for that matter) shop around. Cars are built and tuned by men... that in itself creates issues no matter what. So... All I can do is make the best educated guess possible and go with my gut.

I'll talk to Seth and see if I can actually get a print out of all tolerances.

I'm not sure if my build falls under the OTS build or not. I mean, nothing is custom made for me like Micah's build... but I didn't necissarily go the cheapest route possible either. I personally wouldn't consider my motor "fully built" simply because it doesn't have sleeves. Everything else has been worked, touched, or modified... other than that.

Like I siad before... this car was built privately, I have no sponsors. I do NOT want to destroy this thing. Bluntly, I can't afford it. I have a ridiculous amount of $ into this car at this point and the budget is about tapped. I want to make power... good, useable power, but not if the motor is going to pop in 2 months because its being pushed too hard.

If I can get to 450awhp on 100oct/meth before 8k and 475awhp on C16 or VP Import before 8k... I'll be happy and have no need to find out where that line is drawn.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:04 PM   #36
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JDM STi ver 8 goes to 8300RPM all the time. Why couldn't a fully built heads go to 9000RPM? We are talking only 700RPM.
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:16 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmic View Post
JDM STi ver 8 goes to 8300RPM all the time. Why couldn't a fully built heads go to 9000RPM? We are talking only 700RPM.
the issue isn't the heads...heads are easy...crank oiling is the issue, specifically rod journals
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by japslapr View Post
If I can get to 450awhp on 100oct/meth before 8k and 475awhp on C16 or VP Import before 8k... I'll be happy and have no need to find out where that line is drawn.

On another note, Import you'll see more power than C16 if you tune it for Import. I'll give you a hint...it likes to be run hot.

That said, personally I don't think you're going to be running near enough boost for Import. Also when you start to lean on the fuel, make sure your head components are up to the task (valve seats and such).
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:11 PM   #39
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Look at all the dyno plots of big turbos and you'll see heads limit power above 6500 RPM. Cams and porting will give you more up top along with the usual headers, lack of bends, intake.......

Cosworth cams in my 2.5L with GT35R compressor make peak horse power at 6700. There are some higher peak power cars out there, but they have larger turbine housings that shift VE higher.
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:42 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy View Post
Cosworth cams in my 2.5L with GT35R compressor make peak horse power at 6700. There are some higher peak power cars out there, but they have larger turbine housings that shift VE higher.
bboy,

Don't you think a combination of different dyno's, different tuners and styles also play into the peak power rpm?

Reason I say this is because at pdxtuning, my 30r dyno'd at 408whp at 6896 peak (7100 dyno pull) all this on the stock longblock.
If you look at different dyno's and tuners, there can be a variance of a good 500rpms where the peak power was achieved. I believe this plays into the gear that was run on the dyno also.

thoughts?
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:06 PM   #41
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I have to agree with mark 100% on the fuel choices...the higher the octane means less power at the same air fuel ratio unless you are really pushing the heat (via pressure, timing (not suggested) or leaning it out) and "using" the extra octane...trying to put it simply for those who don't understand octane and how it burns and its effects on in cylinder pressure.

bboy, what hotside do you have or do you have a link to your setup?

modaddict, yes tuning approach can effect the turbo's spool which in turn will effect where your peaks will happen...
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Old 08-29-2007, 06:12 PM   #42
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I understand the effects of higher octane fuels, how they help, and how they could hurt. Not rocket science. I just got done seeing a bone stock EJ205 make 477awhp (yes I'm aware that dynos are not all the same) on a GT30r .63. Now, If I'm not mistaken, my SZ55 flows just as much as that thing will (being the small 30r). I have much larger cams, bigger valves and mild head work. As far as octane comes into play... I was going to use it to run more boost without detonation. I realize this also is only beneficial IF I can flow the air... this is why I brought up the 30r car... I should be able to move quite a bit more, no?
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Old 08-29-2007, 06:16 PM   #43
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yes fred, if it was a bone stock EJ205 making that on a 30R and your slightly higher CR, bigger turbo and better flowing heads should be making more power...what dyno was that made on out of curiosity?
-Micah
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Old 08-29-2007, 06:26 PM   #44
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It's one of the Andrewtech cars. So either theirs or TurboXS. Not sure.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ght=andrewtech
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:31 PM   #45
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oh, that's on a dynapack...expect a lot less on either local dyno. Both are eddy currents...at 460 on All Aspects is about 400 on ours...or so our back to back test showed.
Jon's 470'ish whp on turboxs' dyno made 360 on our mustang...dynapack's are penis pumps...more so than inertial dynojets
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Old 08-30-2007, 08:49 PM   #46
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Honestly... I'm not all that concerned with the numbers. Yeah they look good and are nice to brag about. But at the end of the day. I'd rather have 300awhp and run 11.2's@126 than have 600awhp and run low 12.'s.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:51 AM   #47
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I agree. I would like 450-500awhp out of my wrx. As soon as money permits I will be sending the block and crank out for sleeves and x-drilling+balance... I think with stg 3 heads, 12mm ported pump and forged/balanced bottom, id see power fall off after 8200... watcha think?
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:34 AM   #48
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If you go back earlier in this thread and read a bit, there a tons of factors listed that play a part in reving that high and continuing to make power up there. Not just oil and head work.
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