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Old 12-09-2012, 11:59 AM   #1
atf8611
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Default 1st build, need some advice

I just purchased a long block from an 05 STI. I am planning on doing a full rebuild over the next couple months.

My goals for this build are, in order of importance:
1. Reliability - If I manage to not screw anything up, I want this to go 100k +
2. Power - Shooting for 350 HP, but anything in that ballpark will make me happy.
3. Budget - I don't have a ton of money set aside for this. I have $1500 or so for internals and machine work, and another 1-1.5k for the turbo setup. With that said, I'm not trying to cut corners. They keep giving me more money every couple weeks (Its nice to not be in school anymore), so I have no problem putting things on hold to save for a few more weeks.

I am assuming that my crank and cams can be re-used. I am planning on buying new bearings and seals for everything, as well as new rods and pistons. The engine I bought has about 80k on it, if that makes much of a difference.

I am sure that this has been discussed at some point, but I couldn't find a good thread. Feel free to point me in the right direction.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:04 PM   #2
aboothman
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Good start...but need more $$.

First step is to find a good machine shop if you are doing this locally. Determine whether the rods and crank are usable, and then the quality of the cylinders.

Make sure your builder will do an actual blueprint and give you the specs. Often you will get the "if the crank turns its fine" mentality, especially for these little 4 bangers. Given the frequency of spun bearings in EJ engines, it is completely reasonable to want a blueprint on a lower output engine.

Finding a good machinist is by far the most difficult part of building and engine. I go rounds with my machinist convincing him that the time is worth it, ad I have to remind him that I am looking for twice the TQ/HP per cylinder than most engines.

Then you can decide on brand and size of pistons, collect parts, ??, and profit.

Last edited by aboothman; 12-09-2012 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:10 PM   #3
atf8611
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what should I realistically expect to spend?
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:18 PM   #4
mod maniac
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If the crank and rods are good you should spend the 1500 on the engine. If they arn't then you will spend more.

Last edited by mod maniac; 12-09-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:24 PM   #5
theotherguy
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^^^ They're right...

I've done a few with the same basic guidelines but you're going to have to shop around a bit to meet your budget. Pistons, rods, gasket set and bearings have already eaten away the majority of your 1500. Measure everything first, buying drop ins for an out of spec cylinder will knock you back and out of budget, what does your machine shop charge for bore/hone with torque plates, mine's over $270 with tax, crank clean measure and polish is around $70. It goes on and on. Plan it, then execute it. Unforeseen's will kill your build.
I keep it simple and don't try to build a 500 hp capable engine. I don't have the skills for that but I can pull off a basic stock build capable of the hp goals that you're looking for and even a little more.
Good Luck with the build.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:28 PM   #6
aboothman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atf8611 View Post
what should I realistically expect to spend?
Well a lot depends on machine work

- Pistons 500-600
- Rods $ cost to clean, inspect, magnaflux and resize if necessary
- Crank same treatment
- Block cleaning and inspection, threaded hole chasing, etc
- Bearings $100-$150
- Cylinder boring/honing (WITH TORQUE PLATE!)
- file fitting rings
- gasket kit $250 (including head gaskets) you want this for a ground up build
- possible line hone
- Head inspection $150-$700 depending what needs to be replaced, head surfacing, valve job
- Engine assembly $varies
- Cleaning and inspection of oil pump, pan and pickup
- Timing kit w/ new water pump $200-$400
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:31 PM   #7
aboothman
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Ok I reread and you have a long block...good

I would say $2000-$3000 for the long block build depending whether you reuse parts like rods or not, and the condition of the engine. You may be able to do the engine now, but the turbo setup will have to wait

What car is this going into?
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:01 PM   #8
theotherguy
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First thing is to download the engine section of the FSM for a 2005 sti.
Read it before you touch your engine.
Print it out and have it in front of you every time you work on it.
Read it some more.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:06 PM   #9
aboothman
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Good call!! ^^

If you cannot did it online eBay is a good place to look as well. FSM is where it's at
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:40 PM   #10
atf8611
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Great info everyone, I really appreciate the advice. I need to contact some machine shops as I am not familiar with anyone local. I am ok with shipping the block out for machine work if needed. On that note, is anyone familiar with a good shop in or around upstate NY? I plan on doing as much of the assembly as possible, but any serious machining will need to be farmed out. I know of a few good threads out there already that detail the process as well as the tools needed.

I believe I already have the FSM. I downloaded one a while ago, and I think it included all lines of Impreza. This will be going into an 05 2.5RS, although there wont be much RS left once I'm done with it.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:42 PM   #11
atf8611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theotherguy View Post
First thing is to download the engine section of the FSM for a 2005 sti.
Read it before you touch your engine.
Print it out and have it in front of you every time you work on it.
Read it some more.

Agreed! This will be my first order of business.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:13 PM   #12
atf8611
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Is this the appropriate place to ask about my turbo options? I want to build this for low end power. I couldn't care less about top end performance, I just want as much low to mid-range power as possible. Also, my power goals would be based on pump gas.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:09 PM   #13
aboothman
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Ya it is appropriate. I would suggest a cheap vf39 or similar turbo an go from there. They are cheap and easy to find/replace, and have been tuned a million times so they makes a great place to start IMO. Especially since you are talking about a swap...it will make it easier to get the car running with a **** ton of maps available.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:22 PM   #14
atf8611
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will a vf39 be capable of the power numbers that I'm looking for? And I agree that it might be wise to stick with a basic turbo just to get things going, considering the extent of work that I will be doing. Are there any other reasonable options?
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:50 PM   #15
drewvdw
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Well, first of all, is that power number wheel horsepower or crank horsepower? You won't get 350whp out of a VF39. You'll need something like a 20g to get that power. It sounds like you don't have money for both an engine build and a turbo. I wouldn't even say you've got enough for a solid engine build, but I am the type to overbuild an engine. I suppose you could have a 350whp capable motor with a set of pistons. Of course you will need to replace the timing belt, tensioners, idlers, water pump, oil pump, gaskets, and bearings. Also factor in checking over the heads; you need to look at valves, valve springs, and cams. You may also have to deck the heads. While you're getting all that head work done, you'd be stupid not to upgrade.

I'm spending around $10,000 building my engine. I'm going with a brand new shortblock built by Maxwell power, but just something to open your eyes a little. And no, my build is not all that expensive
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:04 PM   #16
atf8611
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The budget shouldn't be a huge concern. I have no intention of cheaping out. If its going to take more, I can save more (to a certain extent). I want to take my time and do it right. It's reallllly nice being out of school and into a job.

I'm already planning on doing all the seals, timing belt, and all of that. I know those little things can add up quickly, but im more concerned with any major costs that I am overlooking.

What kind of power are you planning on getting with your 10k engine? Is most of that cost for parts or machine work? Just curious.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:16 PM   #17
aboothman
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Maybe I am misjudging his intentions, but IMO his build will be nowhere near $10k nor will he need to build the heads. Needless expense for his power goal. Get the eada inspected and teplace what is needed.

I know that is not what you were saying, but still...

350whp on a vf3x depends on the dyno for one. I listed my reasons for suggesting it: cheap, common, OEM fitment, availability of maps/ easy tuning for breakin, and good lowend torque. There are certainly other options but they will cost 2-4x as much and have other issues to boot. Fitment, tuning, availability, oil supply, injector upgrades (which he may need anyway)...etc. it is a good startin point, and in hindsight, it is a very good setup or a fun daily driver.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:00 PM   #18
drewvdw
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Clutch and flywheel will also need to be inspected/replaced

I know he won't be spending $10k, but it's worth mentioning. I'm not sure how far he'll get for $2500-$3000. Personally I wouldn't tackle it without being prepared to spend $5000.

I'm planning on 350-400whp on E-85 right now with headroom for the future. I've got a parts list of everything I'm doing while the engine is out. To be honest, other than machining in my shortblock, I've only spent $214. That went to a valve job and some light port work. About half of the $10k is the shortblock, the rest is other "little" things.

ARP HEAD STUDS
CRAWFORD AIR/OIL SEPERATOR
GATES RACING AC AND ALT. BELTS
GATES RACING AC BELT TOOL
GATES RACING TIMING BELT KIT
GM INTAKE AIR TEMP SENSOR
GRIMMSPEED PHENOLIC SPACER
GROUP N MOTOR MOUNTS
GROUP N PITCH STOP MOUNT
GROUP N TRANSMISSION MOUNT
HUMPHREY 4 PORT EBCS WITH MOUNTING BRACKET
KELFORD R 199 B CAMS (264)
KILLER B OIL PICKUP
KSTECH AIR PUMP DELETE
MAXWELL POWER MODIFIED OIL PUMP
MAXWELL POWER POWER FACTOR SSLR SHORTBLOCK
OEM GASKET KIT
OEM THROWOUT BEARING
SPEC FLYWHEEL FACEPLATE
SUPERTECH VALVE SPRING KIT

Edit: I'm having trouble with the mod list, but I think that's complete.

Last edited by drewvdw; 12-09-2012 at 07:04 PM. Reason: Forgot the mod list
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:03 PM   #19
atf8611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
Maybe I am misjudging his intentions, but IMO his build will be nowhere near $10k nor will he need to build the heads. Needless expense for his power goal. Get the eada inspected and teplace what is needed.

I know that is not what you were saying, but still...

350whp on a vf3x depends on the dyno for one. I listed my reasons for suggesting it: cheap, common, OEM fitment, availability of maps/ easy tuning for breakin, and good lowend torque. There are certainly other options but they will cost 2-4x as much and have other issues to boot. Fitment, tuning, availability, oil supply, injector upgrades (which he may need anyway)...etc. it is a good startin point, and in hindsight, it is a very good setup or a fun daily driver.

You are correct in assuming that I want a fun daily driver. I would like to entertain the idea of taking it to track days at some point in the future (the kind of track with turns, not 1/4 mile), but honestly, my motorcycle will see the track again before the car ever does.

Im already planning on upgraded injectors and oil delivery. And the more that I think about it, the more a vf39 makes sense to start off with. Im not sold one way or another yet, but its high on my list of possibilities.

I appreciate all of the advice so far, its been very helpful.

So as far as parts that I know will need replacing:

Who makes a good, reasonably priced forged piston? I am familiar with weisco, but I have no idea who else is in the automotive market. The same goes with the rods, what is appropriate for what I am trying to do? I don't know if its worth re-using the stock rods that have 80k+ on them.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:24 PM   #20
atf8611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewvdw View Post
Clutch and flywheel will also need to be inspected/replaced

I know he won't be spending $10k, but it's worth mentioning. I'm not sure how far he'll get for $2500-$3000. Personally I wouldn't tackle it without being prepared to spend $5000.

I'm planning on 350-400whp on E-85 right now with headroom for the future. I've got a parts list of everything I'm doing while the engine is out. To be honest, other than machining in my shortblock, I've only spent $214. That went to a valve job and some light port work. About half of the $10k is the shortblock, the rest is other "little" things.

ARP HEAD STUDS
CRAWFORD AIR/OIL SEPERATOR
GATES RACING AC AND ALT. BELTS
GATES RACING AC BELT TOOL
GATES RACING TIMING BELT KIT
GM INTAKE AIR TEMP SENSOR
GRIMMSPEED PHENOLIC SPACER
GROUP N MOTOR MOUNTS
GROUP N PITCH STOP MOUNT
GROUP N TRANSMISSION MOUNT
HUMPHREY 4 PORT EBCS WITH MOUNTING BRACKET
KELFORD R 199 B CAMS (264)
KILLER B OIL PICKUP
KSTECH AIR PUMP DELETE
MAXWELL POWER MODIFIED OIL PUMP
MAXWELL POWER POWER FACTOR SSLR SHORTBLOCK
OEM GASKET KIT
OEM THROWOUT BEARING
SPEC FLYWHEEL FACEPLATE
SUPERTECH VALVE SPRING KIT

Edit: I'm having trouble with the mod list, but I think that's complete.
clutch and flywheel will both be new, no sense in reusing those.

My list will likely be similar to yours, but I dont need things like the cams or AC stuff. I agree that you are certainly overbuilding, but there's definitely nothing wrong with that. What are you planning on doing with the car once it's done? I definitely dont plan on autocross or anything really abusive like that.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:35 PM   #21
cowboy_Rob
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It really depends completely on how much you shop around. I did my rebuild for under 2k and I went 43k miles without issues until I cracked my cylinder wall after swapping to a fp red, 350 really isn't stressing it much over stock. I reused my rods and crank got the block honed heads checked Manley drop in pistons, acl race bearings, plastigauge everything, factory Subaru gasket set, new clutch disc and bought a wideband and some little random stuff at the same time. Unless your going for crazy power or replacing every single component I don't see how you should even come close to 10k for what can basically be a stock rebuild + forged pistons
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:56 PM   #22
drewvdw
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MPS powered.

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Pretty much the same as you, daily driver and the rare trip to the drag strip. I'd like to take it out road racing a time or two as well.
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