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Old 08-24-2007, 01:03 PM   #1
Dyno Flash
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Default '07 STI 416 Tq 329 whp (dyno jet) Stage II with alchy / water injection

This was a really nice running car although personally, I just dont like the way the stock turbo runs out of balls up top - I suggested a FP Green or similar

Parts consist of APS 3.5 " T/B Exhuast - Upipe - APS cold air intake - Walbro fuel pump - Forge MBC - Aquamist HFS-5 50% / 50% water meth - Access Port 2 with LC custom Dyno Flash Tune

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Old 08-24-2007, 01:08 PM   #2
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Maybe if it was not so rich past 5500 it would have made more up top Al.

Clark
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Old 08-24-2007, 01:09 PM   #3
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smoothest graph ive seen from you yet, awesome!

did you try to run 11.8-12.1 through the whole powerband for gains?
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Old 08-24-2007, 01:43 PM   #4
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Maybe if it was not so rich past 5500 it would have made more up top Al.

Clark
Thanks for the suggestion Clark - however we tried that and we found no extra power but a greater propensity for slight knocking. No doubt this can be attributed to the stock tmic picking up a lot of heat soak on those long 4th gear dyno pulls.

Of course - after we took the car out on the road the timing and fueling were slightly adjusted to optimze operation in real world driving conditions.

Thanks as always for your thoughful self promotional comentary.

Al
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Old 08-24-2007, 01:49 PM   #5
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Looks good Al. I'm curious, have you had an EGT gauge on any of these cars? I know running an a/f even remotely that lean on 91 will result in 1800* EGT's. I'm sure its not nearly as bad on 93, but just wondering if this is something you've actually seen?

-- Ed
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:03 PM   #6
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Looks good Al. I'm curious, have you had an EGT gauge on any of these cars? I know running an a/f even remotely that lean on 91 will result in 1800* EGT's. I'm sure its not nearly as bad on 93, but just wondering if this is something you've actually seen?

-- Ed
I think this run was done with the water/alchy, so I don't think the EGTs would be that high. On my car, with water/meth, running around 12:1 at redline, I barley touch 1650 at the top of 4th gear.
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:25 PM   #7
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I think this run was done with the water/alchy, so I don't think the EGTs would be that high. On my car, with water/meth, running around 12:1 at redline, I barley touch 1650 at the top of 4th gear.
Ah good call... I missed the WI. That explains it. Which kit is it? I would imagine the reason for needing slightly richer a/f up top is that this is a simple binary WI system that tends to run a lower water/fuel ratio as RPM's rise.

-- Ed
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Dyno Flash View Post
Thanks for the suggestion Clark - however we tried that and we found no extra power but a greater propensity for slight knocking. No doubt this can be attributed to the stock tmic picking up a lot of heat soak on those long 4th gear dyno pulls.

Of course - after we took the car out on the road the timing and fueling were slightly adjusted to optimze operation in real world driving conditions.

Thanks as always for your thoughful self promotional comentary.

Al
So now everytime I comment or suggest something its Self Promotional? Your a real piece of work AL. There is no need for enrichment past the trq peak or before it. ITs called VE. If the car was knocking due to heat soak on the TMIC you should have mapped and tuned the Damn Air intake temp map.. This way if the Air temps rise there will not be knock. With the water injection on and that afr this engine is chugging on water and fuel. The more and more I read your posts the more I realize you really dont know what you are doing. Maybe thats why my phone rang 5 times a day for weeks and weeks. ITs sad that you have this attitude and are so quick to bite people. Or sue people.


Clark
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Old 08-24-2007, 03:24 PM   #9
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Omg shut the **** up, both of you
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Old 08-24-2007, 03:36 PM   #10
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Ah good call... I missed the WI. That explains it. Which kit is it? I would imagine the reason for needing slightly richer a/f up top is that this is a simple binary WI system that tends to run a lower water/fuel ratio as RPM's rise.

-- Ed
The Aquamist kits just inject based on injector pulse width, so you'll get a constant proportion of water/alchy mix with fuel. When I get my car back together, I'm going to try mapping the HSV off of the spare solenoid control on the UTEC so I can have independent 3D mapping for the water/alchy mix. I'm not sure if it will make much of a difference, but it should be interesting to try.


Mike
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Old 08-24-2007, 03:37 PM   #11
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Omg shut the **** up, both of you
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Old 08-24-2007, 03:47 PM   #12
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x2 at explosion
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by AZScoobie View Post
So now everytime I comment or suggest something its Self Promotional? Your a real piece of work AL. There is no need for enrichment past the trq peak or before it. ITs called VE. If the car was knocking due to heat soak on the TMIC you should have mapped and tuned the Damn Air intake temp map.. This way if the Air temps rise there will not be knock. With the water injection on and that afr this engine is chugging on water and fuel. The more and more I read your posts the more I realize you really dont know what you are doing. Maybe thats why my phone rang 5 times a day for weeks and weeks. ITs sad that you have this attitude and are so quick to bite people. Or sue people.


Clark
You won't find me introjecting myself into your or other tuner's threads with these kind of second opinions and insults of other people's work

I find this kind of negative marketing and trash talking is not something I feel the need to engage in nor do I look favorably upon those who engage in this kind of behavor.

As a so called professional tuner - and one who neglects to support these forums with vendor fees - I would expect and hope that you would let your work and tuning speak for itself. Rather it seems you feel the need to take pot shots and make insults about your other peers in this business.

Al on ICS CPU
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:10 PM   #14
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Al - Why the MBC? Not sure what your experience has been with the 07 Boost control, but the VF43 with the stock solenoid has worked phenomenal so far. I'm positive you could get boost to hold better with the BC and some more tweaking over a dumb MBC.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:18 PM   #15
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Al - Why the MBC? Not sure what your experience has been with the 07 Boost control, but the VF43 with the stock solenoid has worked phenomenal so far. I'm positive you could get boost to hold better with the BC and some more tweaking over a dumb MBC.
Chris i agree but i found flatter wider midrange with the MBC on the 07s without spiking issues, the 07 stock solenoid is quite a beast to tame. I guess with the stock you could hold it shut a little more towards redline, but there are other ways for making power up in that range other then boost.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:46 PM   #16
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Chris i agree but i found flatter wider midrange with the MBC on the 07s without spiking issues, the 07 stock solenoid is quite a beast to tame. I guess with the stock you could hold it shut a little more towards redline, but there are other ways for making power up in that range other then boost.
The problem with the 07 is tweaking the "Starting Wastegate Duty Cycles" once you get those dialed in, then the High/Low WGDC will work out much better with some good tuning. Generally, around peak boost (3200) I would run a starting WGDC of 60, then use the High/Low to tweak any spikes... Seriously, if you take the time with it, it works unreal.

Here is the boost chart of the last 07 StageII I did.

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Old 08-24-2007, 05:06 PM   #17
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The problem with the 07 is tweaking the "Starting Wastegate Duty Cycles" once you get those dialed in, then the High/Low WGDC will work out much better with some good tuning. Generally, around peak boost (3200) I would run a starting WGDC of 60, then use the High/Low to tweak any spikes... Seriously, if you take the time with it, it works unreal.

Here is the boost chart of the last 07 StageII I did.

Chris that was my decision.. . Al does an excellent job controlling the factory boost solenoid. We have tuned (4) 07's this week so far.. we set the boost utlizing the factory solenoid so and I must say its dead on.. Im planning to use my new 07 with 176 miles on it as a test bed for numerous combinations to see what actually works and what dosen't. Besides we will be going very BIG soon.

-George

-George
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Old 08-24-2007, 05:23 PM   #18
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You won't find me introjecting myself into your or other tuner's threads with these kind of second opinions and insults of other people's work

I find this kind of negative marketing and trash talking is not something I feel the need to engage in nor do I look favorably upon those who engage in this kind of behavor.

As a so called professional tuner - and one who neglects to support these forums with vendor fees - I would expect and hope that you would let your work and tuning speak for itself. Rather it seems you feel the need to take pot shots and make insults about your other peers in this business.

Al on ICS CPU
So Al , is he wrong ?
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Old 08-24-2007, 05:40 PM   #19
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Al - Why the MBC? Not sure what your experience has been with the 07 Boost control, but the VF43 with the stock solenoid has worked phenomenal so far. I'm positive you could get boost to hold better with the BC and some more tweaking over a dumb MBC.
Boss's preference on his own car

Most stage II cars I do have oem ecu controlled boost

As you suggest the oem set up is very execelent - gives more modular partial tps boost control and also have built in safegaurds - its is my preference

The car that is the subject of this thread will be getting a bigger turbo soon so a mbc was selected
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:07 PM   #20
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So Al , is he wrong ?
You won't get an answer to this because Al is not professional enough to ever admit a mistake.

Al starts 20 threads a week and they all turn into a **** show for a reason.

Click on Junior's Green with a TMIC thread above this and you'll see tuners engaging in technical discussion POSITIVELY.
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Old 08-24-2007, 10:08 PM   #21
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You won't get an answer to this because Al is not professional enough to ever admit a mistake.

Al starts 20 threads a week and they all turn into a **** show for a reason.

Click on Junior's Green with a TMIC thread above this and you'll see tuners engaging in technical discussion POSITIVELY.
If you notice - Al is posting his work and explaining the modifications and the tuning notes on the cars he is tuning. You do not see Al chiming in with insults about other tuner's work.

Al already explained previously in the thread why he mapped the car with a richer a/f on the dyno and that he experimented with running it leaner and was not satisfied with what he observed and there was no additional power to be had. Al also explained that a DYNO is an evironment with limited air flow and that 4th gear pulls can be very taxing on the heat soak with a stock tmic.

I think, given the rude and obnoxious tone of the other tuner's comment it was suprizing that Al would even waste his time to respond.

It is a shame that all tuners who contribute to this forum can not have mutual respect for each other and that some of the tuners seem to spend most of their time 2nd guessing the work of others.
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Old 08-25-2007, 03:52 AM   #22
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There is no need for enrichment past the trq peak or before it. ITs called VE.

Clark
I strongly disagree. Excess fuel is used almost exclusively for cooling, and not just the intake temps, but the exhaust temps. In either case, both are generally highest, or at least tend to increase, as you approach redline. In the case of exhaust temps, thermal inertia tends to keep metal parts of heating up for at least a few seconds. After a few seconds of high EGT has passed, you're probably near redline on the road. (I wish you could tune A/F to not just RPM/MAP-MAF but also to time, for that very reason- so far, only the 9-5 Aero has that, and it's built into the "overboost" function, wherein, if you've been at low-throttle for long enough, coolant temps are low enough, and there is no knock adaption, it will allow more boost pressure than normal in the midrange)

At high RPM there's more coolant load, the turbo is further from peak efficiency, there's more frictional heating of the pistons (which heats the piston almost 50% as much as the actual combustion does in many cases), and any heat acquired during the midrange is probably still trying to dissipate.

I had a chance to talk to Saab's director of in house tuning, and they've brought in 9-2X's, as well as many other types of cars, with all sorts of "custom" tunes; they've always found that they could extract more power by running leaner in the middle-RPM and richer towards redline. It did require some tweaking of the timing maps, but it always worked.

I know everyone here seems to have his/her own way of tuning. It's just that I see huge amounts of data from NACA, the SAE, and factory tunes from so many engines and have to wonder how they could ALL be wrong. Surely they must have SOME reason for what they do, and I've already ruled out doing it JUST for pollution control, especially in the case of all the research done by NACA.

Still, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. It's just been my observation that most aftermarket tuners tend to get "stuck" in their methods, and don't have the time/money to experiment with methods they aren't used to, or comfortable with. It's understandable, since you're working mainly with customer cars, and a relatively (compared to NACA, or factory research) low budget; if you lunch an engine ... much worse things will happen.

Anyway, the ultimate power/torque difference isn't that great between either technique, as long as both tuners have had time to get used to each. I don't generally agree with what Al says either, though it's nothing personal either way. So take it with a grain of salt.

-Adrian
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Old 08-25-2007, 03:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by IMPORTEDCARS View Post
You won't find me introjecting myself into your or other tuner's threads with these kind of second opinions and insults of other people's work

I find this kind of negative marketing and trash talking is not something I feel the need to engage in nor do I look favorably upon those who engage in this kind of behavor.

As a so called professional tuner - and one who neglects to support these forums with vendor fees - I would expect and hope that you would let your work and tuning speak for itself. Rather it seems you feel the need to take pot shots and make insults about your other peers in this business.

Al on ICS CPU

This is not a forum for tuners to advertise. Its a forum to discuss subarus. If its posted we can discuss. If you want to advertise then get a banner. Otherwise this is a discussion group.

Clark
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Old 08-25-2007, 04:03 AM   #24
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I am not a Saab tuner so I cant comment on the Saab engines. Maybe the saabaru.. But none of the others. The only area that enrichment is needed is the during the positive of the trq curve. If your egt is to high you have other issues. Its great waste of fuel to grossly over fuel in an atempt to cool egt. If that fuel is removed and the timing is advanced the egt will come down. A proper AFR curve on a subaru would be a smiley face However large changes in AFR can upset the balance and cause knock just as large jumps in timing do. The real reason, and a reason that you overlooked, for the enrichment in stock engines is to fire off the 2 or 3 Cat converters downstream from the engine. They have a pretty small window of effeciency and a rich mixture that continues to burn past the exhaust ports is just the ticket to produce the heat that makes the cats run effecient.

Clark

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Originally Posted by SaabTuner View Post
I strongly disagree. Excess fuel is used almost exclusively for cooling, and not just the intake temps, but the exhaust temps. In either case, both are generally highest, or at least tend to increase, as you approach redline. In the case of exhaust temps, thermal inertia tends to keep metal parts of heating up for at least a few seconds. After a few seconds of high EGT has passed, you're probably near redline on the road. (I wish you could tune A/F to not just RPM/MAP-MAF but also to time, for that very reason- so far, only the 9-5 Aero has that, and it's built into the "overboost" function, wherein, if you've been at low-throttle for long enough, coolant temps are low enough, and there is no knock adaption, it will allow more boost pressure than normal in the midrange)

At high RPM there's more coolant load, the turbo is further from peak efficiency, there's more frictional heating of the pistons (which heats the piston almost 50% as much as the actual combustion does in many cases), and any heat acquired during the midrange is probably still trying to dissipate.

I had a chance to talk to Saab's director of in house tuning, and they've brought in 9-2X's, as well as many other types of cars, with all sorts of "custom" tunes; they've always found that they could extract more power by running leaner in the middle-RPM and richer towards redline. It did require some tweaking of the timing maps, but it always worked.

I know everyone here seems to have his/her own way of tuning. It's just that I see huge amounts of data from NACA, the SAE, and factory tunes from so many engines and have to wonder how they could ALL be wrong. Surely they must have SOME reason for what they do, and I've already ruled out doing it JUST for pollution control, especially in the case of all the research done by NACA.

Still, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. It's just been my observation that most aftermarket tuners tend to get "stuck" in their methods, and don't have the time/money to experiment with methods they aren't used to, or comfortable with. It's understandable, since you're working mainly with customer cars, and a relatively (compared to NACA, or factory research) low budget; if you lunch an engine ... much worse things will happen.

Anyway, the ultimate power/torque difference isn't that great between either technique, as long as both tuners have had time to get used to each. I don't generally agree with what Al says either, though it's nothing personal either way. So take it with a grain of salt.

-Adrian
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Old 08-25-2007, 04:46 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by XX_Chris View Post
The problem with the 07 is tweaking the "Starting Wastegate Duty Cycles" once you get those dialed in, then the High/Low WGDC will work out much better with some good tuning. Generally, around peak boost (3200) I would run a starting WGDC of 60, then use the High/Low to tweak any spikes... Seriously, if you take the time with it, it works unreal.

Here is the boost chart of the last 07 StageII I did.

Chris. Good points. One thing that you did not mention that is very import on 07 boost tuning is the switchover to open loop. I want to mention this because if someone that is self tuning read this thread he might follow your wastegate advice (which I agree with) without lowering the Per gear open loop switch points. Clearly you did that in that chart you posted.

I dont believe you lowered them enough but thats just my opinion. I want enrichment as that turbo comes up to boost. So note to armchair tuners or tuners that dont actualy know what you are doing : Running 18 psi at 14 to 1 is not a good thing.. Make sure you open loop switch point matches your boost curve.



Clark
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