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Old 08-28-2007, 10:06 AM   #1
bigmike25rs
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10.66 @ 136 mph

Default Bearing clearance

Ok, so a few months ago my motor was built to stock bearing spec and it ended up eating itself in about 3 days (700 miles).. It also happened to be on the dyno.. That sucked. The car ran awesome for the milage that I got out of it. But, it had only been randomly boosted for the break-in. At the dyno was the first time that it had been run hard. We got about 5 pulls out of it and 18psi from the 35R. Anyway, from the pics, it looked VERY oil starved.. I lost bearing number 2, and the rest were a bit heated. I'm a little nervous about the rebuild so I'd like to see what specs others are building to.. I'm not positive that it was built too tight before, but I'd like to cover all the bases. You can definatly tell that there was some oiling issue.. I used a stock replacement pump and 5w30 for break-in.
The motor-
Cosworth bearings (acl)
Manley turbo tuff I-beam rods
Wiseco pistons- coated
ARP studs
Here's some pics of the damage-

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Old 08-28-2007, 11:03 AM   #2
jays05
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I am obviously no expert here, but when my motor was being assembled, I figured "hey, the factory did a pretty good job here already, no need to make major changes". I had my shop use OEM bearings on the loose end of factory spec (wish I had more specific details than that but I don't), and a cosworth oil pump. I spin it to 7500 daily with no issues, ~3000 miles.

Did you have an oil pressure gauge? How many times was the oil changed during the initial 700 miles?
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:11 AM   #3
mick_the_ginge
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Oil Dry Sump Goodness

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Wow, I feel your pain, trust me. Stock clearances are far too tight for a modified block IMO.

Main Bearings
Stock #1 - 0.00012 - 0.0012
Stock #2 - 0.0004 - 0.0012
Stock #3 - 0.00012 - 0.0012
Stock #4 - 0.0004 - 0.0012
Stock #5 - 0.0004 - 0.0012

Look at #1, it's sooooo tight and I can tell you from experience that it comes out like that as well.

What would I do for high performance with upgraded oil pump - 0.001 0.0015

Rod Bearings
Stock - 0.0007 - 0.002

Again, the lower end of the spec is very tight

What would I do for high performance with upgraded oil pump - 0.0015 0.0025

I setup my last build using the following, but don't forget I am also doing a dry sump for additional oiling and this was a 2.2T case. (Oh and the block is not running yet so I really don't know if the whole thing is going to fall apart on the fisrt fire up)

Main bearing clearance (ACL RACE Series bearings, #3 thrust)
#1 0.0012"
#2 0.0015"
#3 0.0015"
#4 0.0015"
#5 0.0015"

Notice how #1 still came out tight!!!!

Rod bearing clearance (ACL RACE Series bearings)
#1 0.002"
#2 0.002"
#3 0.002"
#4 0.002"

0.002" is still within factory specs, just on the large size.

This maybe obvious but if the rods are heated then don't use them again, it's not worth the risk. Replace the ones that have marks.

Of course if this was a oiling failure I would also look at the pump. Don't reuse it and if you are not going to a full dry sump then the new 12mm oil pump is a must. The looser you go with the bearings the more flow you are going to need to correctly oil the whole block.

You may want to check the injector in that cylinder as well, just in case it was not spraying like the others making you run leaner in that cylinder. IMO it is an oiling issue but someone is bound to bring up det and it is worth covering all bases.

How did the engine feel during break in? Strong? Did you have to do anything strange to the tune to get it to run? If you did this is also a tell tale sign of a build issue.

Good luck with the next build
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:25 AM   #4
Mark C.
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Ouch. What do you mean by stock replacement, like an Autozone pump? Do you have a datalog of the oil pressure during the pull?
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:59 AM   #5
Kosmic
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My friend that build high performance Subaru engines weekly, told me exactly what Mick just posted above.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:22 PM   #6
bigmike25rs
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The pump was OEM subaru oil pump.. Unfortunatly, I didn't have an oil pressure gauge, but I've already ordered one for this time around..
The det issue- Tim Bailey was tuning the car and I fully stand behind his work.. He also showed me the logs and everything A/F wise looked right in line. We were just getting started so the timing was very low as well..
The rods- I ended up sending the stockers to the machine shop because Manley can't get me a matched rod for way too long. I planned on making 500whp on the Mustang, so I'm banking on the stock rods for one season. I've also ordered OEM rod and main bearings this time around. There have been alot of failures with rod bearings in my local community.. My buddy Tim (Slorice) had a similar setup with big cams built on the loose side and he spun a bearing as well.. This is getting nerve racking..
What kind of performance oil pumps are available? I've seen the EJ22T oil pump used on the EJ25 because of the abililty to be shimmed. I thought I could use a stock STi pump and be OK because the motor wasen't going to rev past 7500.. Any thoughts?
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:27 PM   #7
benw
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Jun, Cosworth

The Cosworth is not too expensive only heard good things about it.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:28 PM   #8
mick_the_ginge
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Oil Dry Sump Goodness

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Search for the "12mm pump thread".

You are correct the stock pump should have been ok, kind of points to build tolerances issue

Tim's tunes are reliable, I trust him
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:34 PM   #9
bigmike25rs
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Ok, I found a COBB and Cosworth pump.. What's the difference between the Cosworth race pump and modified pump? Seems like the race pump is designed for high sustained RPM's..
Looks like the modified Cosworth pump with loose end stock clearances is the way to go..
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:59 PM   #10
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I have a brand new bored and honed to 100mm ej257 with wiesco's stock sti rods and crank, with cosworth race bearings, set the rods to .002 on the dot, and the mains at anywhere from .0015 to .0020 have about 700 miles on, changed the oil after initial start up and a short drive 5 miles, then changed again at 500 next change will be at 1500 miles with syn. No knocks or pings sounds good, good luck
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:19 PM   #11
Kosmic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
Search for the "12mm pump thread".

You are correct the stock pump should have been ok, kind of points to build tolerances issue

Tim's tunes are reliable, I trust him

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=12mm
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:07 PM   #12
bigmike25rs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javastiwagon24 View Post
I have a brand new bored and honed to 100mm ej257 with wiesco's stock sti rods and crank, with cosworth race bearings, set the rods to .002 on the dot, and the mains at anywhere from .0015 to .0020 have about 700 miles on, changed the oil after initial start up and a short drive 5 miles, then changed again at 500 next change will be at 1500 miles with syn. No knocks or pings sounds good, good luck
Good luck with yours.. Mine ran great untill I actually held boost throughout the powerband.. Once it was introduced to some real heat, it let go.. The more I read, the more I'm convinced that the bearing clearances were too tight.. Even being within spec, it seems these motors need to be on the far loose end of the spec..
Anyone know what size rotor is in the Cosworth modified pump? Their race pump advertises a 12mm rotor, but also comes with a $400+ price tag..
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:48 PM   #13
SloRice
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japanparts.com is a vendor on here. they sell the 12mm pump.

Or you can just buy a shimmed 10mm pump from Axis for ~$150 like I have.
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:05 PM   #14
Mark C.
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You have a 1400 dollar turbocharger, do not shy away from spending the money on oiling...it's what keeps your engine alive. You probably spent 600-800 on some 3.5" pipe (your exhaust), don't sell the oil pump short.
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:53 AM   #15
bigmike25rs
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^^^ Good point.. I don't really mind shelling out the cash for a good, I just want to make sure I'm getting the right pump for my application.. Seems like 12mm Cosworth is for sustained high RPM use.. I just want a little bump in pressure.
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:54 AM   #16
bigmike25rs
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...double post

Last edited by bigmike25rs; 08-30-2007 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 08-31-2007, 03:00 AM   #17
srREXed
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Great forum, some good information. Does anybody have clearances for the USDM EJ20? Id like to see what others are using!
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Old 09-01-2007, 06:57 AM   #18
bugeyes
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My EJ20 regularly sees 8000rpm. Currently running a GT35 so I need top end revs otherwise the power band is too short.
I am running a 10mm oil pump, acl bearings set to 1.8 to 2.0 thou clearance. You cant run those tight oem clearances if you expect any sort of revs and I run altered oil grooves in the bearing shells, they have a full groove. This way the supply to the rods is not on and off like the standard bearings.
Apart from that mobil 1 oil.
The engine revs very smoothly and if you dont pay attention to the tacho in lower gears you'll will send it straight to the 8300 rev limiter (I also have longer duration cams).
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Old 09-01-2007, 09:13 PM   #19
srREXed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugeyes View Post
My EJ20 regularly sees 8000rpm. Currently running a GT35 so I need top end revs otherwise the power band is too short.
I am running a 10mm oil pump, acl bearings set to 1.8 to 2.0 thou clearance. You cant run those tight oem clearances if you expect any sort of revs and I run altered oil grooves in the bearing shells, they have a full groove. This way the supply to the rods is not on and off like the standard bearings.
Apart from that mobil 1 oil.
The engine revs very smoothly and if you dont pay attention to the tacho in lower gears you'll will send it straight to the 8300 rev limiter (I also have longer duration cams).

Are those your rod bearings or mains? Also, my build is with a USDM ej20... little bit different than your jdm ej20. Why are you running a 10mm pump? Doesnt your v7 come with a 12?
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Old 09-02-2007, 12:02 AM   #20
bigmike25rs
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Would anyone like to comment on how oil weight will affect overal pressure? With rod bearing clearances right at .002 and a modified oil pump, what weight oil would be ideal? Since .002 is still within spec, I could use 5w30 without issues correct? Or would I need a heavier oil to compensate?
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Old 09-02-2007, 09:50 AM   #21
SloRice
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For sure run a heavier oil. I'm running 15w40 for break in. Then switching to 15w50 after that.
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Old 09-02-2007, 10:58 AM   #22
jays05
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I've been running rotella-t 15w40 since my motor was new, gonna switch to a similar weight synthetic soon (maybe 5w40 rotella-t).
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:14 PM   #23
IllNastyImpreza
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ouch only 700 miles !

I had my block built @ a hotrod v8 shop (who also seems to like working on subaru's...go figure)

and he was all about having loose tolerences in my motor...

they rebuilt it with oversized cleavite bearings...

But I have yet to start her up yet....

whats a good oil for break-in ?
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Old 09-02-2007, 05:15 PM   #24
charliew
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Default grooved main bearing shells

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugeyes View Post
My EJ20 regularly sees 8000rpm. Currently running a GT35 so I need top end revs otherwise the power band is too short.
I am running a 10mm oil pump, acl bearings set to 1.8 to 2.0 thou clearance. You cant run those tight oem clearances if you expect any sort of revs and I run altered oil grooves in the bearing shells, they have a full groove. This way the supply to the rods is not on and off like the standard bearings.
Apart from that mobil 1 oil.
The engine revs very smoothly and if you dont pay attention to the tacho in lower gears you'll will send it straight to the 8300 rev limiter (I also have longer duration cams).
I'm interested in what brand of mains you used? I have a 2.2 na (phase 1) that came stock with fully grooved main shells. I think the oil supply holes need to be elongated to supply the grooves in the shells with more volume. Do the venders say whether or not their shells are fully grooved?

Charlie
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Old 09-03-2007, 05:18 AM   #25
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Default Japanparts replies

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloRice View Post
japanparts.com is a vendor on here. they sell the 12mm pump.

Or you can just buy a shimmed 10mm pump from Axis for ~$150 like I have.
While Forum rules won't allow us to post pricing; we've supplied dozens of the 12mm Oil Pumps recently so if anyone wants to PM me ( or search under Engine Parts on our Japanparts site ) I'll be happy to followup

Graham Ware
Export Manager
Japanparts.com
* Since 1996 *
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