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Old 09-10-2006, 10:52 PM   #1
verc
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Default Helix cams problems update

Followup from http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ght=helix+cams

I myself haven't gotten the car thoroughly checked out by Gruppe-S yet so I apologize. I'm working 60-70 hours a week but beyond that I don't want to waste their time disassembling my motor just yet. In the last thread I posted several people stated they were getting the cams installed and would post back with results. So I'll update on more info I have (strictly the facts, no opinions here)

Searching in the PPB forum I came up w/ 2 people who got dyno #'s from these cams. I pm'd them and they said no problems so far. That was 1.5 months ago.

A couple vendors pullled the cams from sale until confidence in the product could be restored. One didn't want to be liable if the product caused problems. Locally in the San Francisco bay area, people who are in the know with the various tuning shops seem to be wary of the product. But I suspect it may just be "telephone effect" or the slander mill since Gruppe-S (as with any successful shop) has detractors locally.

So, any updates from anyone else out there?
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Old 09-11-2006, 11:34 AM   #2
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I have no facts or information...but I know I'm buying a set of these in December/Jan when my x-mas bonus comes in.
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Old 09-11-2006, 05:06 PM   #3
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My curiousity has been peaked about these issues as I have just bought some, but have ye to install.

Im taking them in to work tomorrow to check the hardness of the cam lobes, I also have some OEM WRX cams which I'll get a reading off of to.

Then I'll measure the journals of both to see if theres a difference in the 2.
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Old 09-12-2006, 01:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkiller View Post
Im taking them in to work tomorrow to check the hardness of the cam lobes, I also have some OEM WRX cams which I'll get a reading off of to.

Then I'll measure the journals of both to see if theres a difference in the 2.
That's actually a really great idea to measure the hardness (do you know what they should be?), since one mechanic I talked to hypothesized bad metallurgy since quality control is often an issue with overseas manufacturers.
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Old 09-12-2006, 05:26 PM   #5
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Alright, I took the OEM WRX right Exhaust cam and the matching HELIX cam and took measurements of the journals and a hardness test of the cam surface(not the actual lobe).

The hardness test was not performed by me, but by a co-worker whose been doing it for 15+ years.

Diameters were measured at each end of the journal in 2 locations(90 degs. from each measurement).

Hardness test in Rockwell C
OEM WRX 47.5c (these cams have ~70k miles on them and they look in excellent condition)

HELIX 60.5c, yeah, had to make the guy do the test twice just to make sure. 60.5 is very hard. If all the HELIX cams are about the same hardness, the cam lobe will not wear out.

OD Journals (factory service manual states 1.179-1.1796 for the rear and middle, 1.4939-1.4946 for the front. Oil clearances are .0015-.0028 with a max of .0039 )

OEM WRX rear 1.1794
center 1.1793

R EX. HELIX rear 1.1791
center 1.1789
front 1.493-1.4933

L EX. HELIX rear 1.1785
center 1.1787
front 1.493-1.4934

R IN. HELIX rear 1.1783-1.1784
center 1.1783-1.1784
front 1.4934-1.4933

L IN. HELIX rear 1.1787-1.1785
center 1.1786-1.1787
front 1.4935-1.4934



Even though the HELIX journal was a .0001 under low limit of factory spec, I won't return it. However, the dimensions shown on the HELIX cam leads me to believe that they were manufacturing with looser tolerances then the OEM cam. I will definitely check the others before making the final decision if I keep them or not.

I'm fairly hesitant on using these cams now. Does anyone have any crower/kelford or other aftermarket cams that they could measure the OD journals? I would like to know if all companies are this loose in their manufacturing tolerances.

Last edited by Starkiller; 09-13-2006 at 04:52 PM. Reason: Got the numbers
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Old 09-13-2006, 07:54 AM   #6
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Wow, nice work man! Thanks alot
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Old 09-15-2006, 01:01 AM   #7
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interesting. Starkiller I really think your cams are fine then, I am suspecting more of a quality control issue since people definately are running these fine. I now know of 2 people who observed lobe damage, and another with same symptoms as me but also hasn't torn down the motor yet.
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Old 09-15-2006, 11:24 PM   #8
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Hi Starkiller,

Based on your measurements the manufacturing tolerances does appear to be out of wack - depending on how the measurements are made (most calipers are +/- .001" only) I have left a message for Helix regarding this issue (it's sat in japan right now), as it is possible that there was a bad batch of 264 WRX camshafts. Can you advise as to how the measurements were taken?

Another thing everyone else may want to consider is that sometimes on valvetrain failures (bent valves etc.) there will be damage to the journal housings themselves, which will necessitate have the housings machined to properly fit a camshaft. Failure to do this may cause lobe damage you are seeing.

That said, anyone who feels they have a problem with the Helix camshafts, please contact me via e-mail. I will work with Helix to remedy the problem if it is true we are dealing with a bad batch of camshafts. Having worked in this industry for awhile, unfortunately this does happen from time to time, my last experience with this type of problem was a bad batch of (a well known US manufacturer) camshaft for hondas, so I am not ruling anything out at this point.

Thanks,

Gary
Gruppe-S

Last edited by Gruppe-S; 09-15-2006 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 09-16-2006, 12:10 AM   #9
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kick me in the sac and call me betty. seems like the helix stuff on my car is probably the weak link. should have listend to the tuners in my area and went with a proven company.helix injectors ,and cams wow . if this stuff fails is gruppe-s going to pay for the r&r of and replacement of the parts???? f@#k me . i am hoping that the machine shop that did my heads and installed the cams checked all this. seeing as the cams don't come with **** . asked for spec card gary and i was told oh we have them ,and we will post them .well start posting the specs for the cams . lied to twice now by you guys.
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Old 09-16-2006, 03:59 AM   #10
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Gruppe-S: .0001 incremental Mitutuyo micrometers calibrated on a yearly basis due to ISO requirements on the company I work for.

The other descrepency I noticed was that on the intial cam I measured the OD journal(rear only) width to be ~.030 narrower then the OEM WRX cam. I can't be exact with this number due to fact that the inspection equipment I was using(optical comparator) is limited in size, which means I could only measure the rear journal.

Last edited by Starkiller; 09-16-2006 at 04:05 AM.
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Old 09-16-2006, 12:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verc View Post
*edit*

I'll clarify on the exact nature of the problem:

- slight hesitation around 2500-3000 rpm
- periodically pulls timing. eventually goes into limp mode
- cyclical problem: car is fine for a week, then for week 2 pulls timing, goes into limp mode, week 3 car is fine again

*edit*
This hesitation issue, is partial trottle only, or does it happen @ WOT also?
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Old 09-16-2006, 01:08 PM   #12
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has anyone had a set that they noticed the thrust area of the cams being quite a rough surface
i had a set in hands the other day almost like they didn t use a fine enough wheel to finish that area off
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Old 09-16-2006, 02:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by P&L Motorsports Inc. View Post
This hesitation issue, is partial trottle only, or does it happen @ WOT also?
good talking to ya about these cams!! let me know what you find out seeing we both have the same issues,and are using the same helix products.

gruppe-s are you going to stand behind your product and give everyone thier money back for the cams??,and injectors???
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Old 09-16-2006, 03:27 PM   #14
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Starkiller - thanks for the info, I will check with Helix to see what they want to do.

Sonic RX -
1. We are not sure if there even is a problem with the cams - obviously the tolerances on Starkillers cams appear to be looser than they are supposed to be, but I'm still not certain .001 will cause the failure you described in your case.

2. Your particular heads, as I recall were, were professionally installed by our engine builder - which means cam journal clearances were set, and adjustments made. The fact that you first cited crankshaft problems (which we checked and turned out to be perfect), never returned the first set of cams for inspection, and were given a second set of cams indicates to me that it is more likely you have an oiling problem with your engine which can be caused be reusing your old oil pump, oil pan, etc. (you had a blown motor before this no?) As for the injectors, they are custom made by Denso, I highly doubt there is a manufacturing problem on Denso's part also. I'm really sorry to say this man, but I think you were not necessarily given the whole story by whoever was building / tuning your car.

We alone have sold over 100 sets of these camshafts to this date. The majority of customers running these camshafts don't appear to have a problem, the ones that didn't check valvelash or just dropped the cams into their stock valvetrain (as you would say an EVO or a Honda) appear to be the ones having these particular problems. We've seen this happen with JUN cams also, I think the way the EJ series motors are setup the valvelash needs to be very precise.

That said if there is indeed a bad batch of Helix camsahfts out there (which of course is possible), we will take full responsibility for that. Therefore if anyone feels like you have a problem with your camshafts, please e-mail, I will work with you to resolve this issue.

Thanks,

Gary
Gruppe-S
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Old 09-16-2006, 04:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruppe-S View Post
Starkiller - thanks for the info, I will check with Helix to see what they want to do.

Sonic RX -
1. We are not sure if there even is a problem with the cams - obviously the tolerances on Starkillers cams appear to be looser than they are supposed to be, but I'm still not certain .001 will cause the failure you described in your case.

2. Your particular heads, as I recall were, were professionally installed by our engine builder - which means cam journal clearances were set, and adjustments made. The fact that you first cited crankshaft problems (which we checked and turned out to be perfect), never returned the first set of cams for inspection, and were given a second set of cams indicates to me that it is more likely you have an oiling problem with your engine which can be caused be reusing your old oil pump, oil pan, etc. (you had a blown motor before this no?) As for the injectors, they are custom made by Denso, I highly doubt there is a manufacturing problem on Denso's part also. I'm really sorry to say this man, but I think you were not necessarily given the whole story by whoever was building / tuning your car.

We alone have sold over 100 sets of these camshafts to this date. The majority of customers running these camshafts don't appear to have a problem, the ones that didn't check valvelash or just dropped the cams into their stock valvetrain (as you would say an EVO or a Honda) appear to be the ones having these particular problems. We've seen this happen with JUN cams also, I think the way the EJ series motors are setup the valvelash needs to be very precise.

That said if there is indeed a bad batch of Helix camsahfts out there (which of course is possible), we will take full responsibility for that. Therefore if anyone feels like you have a problem with your camshafts, please e-mail, I will work with you to resolve this issue.

Thanks,

Gary
Gruppe-S
i hope only the first comment was towards me because i never had a crankshaft problem ,and or any other problem that required me to send anything to you. and i never sent back cams,and never recieved a 2nd set.
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Old 09-16-2006, 04:24 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic rx View Post
i hope only the first comment was towards me because i never had a crankshaft problem ,and or any other problem that required me to send anything to you. and i never sent back cams,and never recieved a 2nd set.
Hey Sonic RX, can you please drop me an e-mail and discuss your problem?

Thanks,

Gary
gary@gruppe-s.com
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Old 09-16-2006, 04:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruppe-S View Post
Hey Sonic RX, can you please drop me an e-mail and discuss your problem?

Thanks,

Gary
gary@gruppe-s.com
yep
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verc View Post
*edit*

I'll clarify on the exact nature of the problem:

- slight hesitation around 2500-3000 rpm
- periodically pulls timing. eventually goes into limp mode
- cyclical problem: car is fine for a week, then for week 2 pulls timing, goes into limp mode, week 3 car is fine again

*edit*


I know of two bugeyes w/ the Helix valvetrain experiencing wierd periodic power loss problems, going into limp mode. There is suspicion that they are wiping due to manufacturing issues w/ the lobes. However I've seen people using the cams and haven't heard issues.

Thanks,
Ambert
Do you have the Helix valvetrain? If so, I've heard the its VERY noisy. Could it be the knock sensor picking up on the valvetrain noise? I know some knock sensors are very sensitive and pick up on ANYTHING. Just thinking out loud

-Frankie
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Old 09-29-2006, 09:48 AM   #19
sonic rx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruppe-S View Post
Hey Sonic RX, can you please drop me an e-mail and discuss your problem?

Thanks,

Gary
gary@gruppe-s.com

hey gary

i think ya dropped out of the open line of communication. email me about swapping helix injectors for the pe 800's we will see if the problem is the injectors. did everything you said ,and still not right. need to figure something out before all hell breaks loose
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Old 09-29-2006, 09:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkiller View Post
Alright, I took the OEM WRX right Exhaust cam and the matching HELIX cam and took measurements of the journals and a hardness test of the cam surface(not the actual lobe).

The hardness test was not performed by me, but by a co-worker whose been doing it for 15+ years.

Diameters were measured at each end of the journal in 2 locations(90 degs. from each measurement).

Hardness test in Rockwell C
OEM WRX 47.5c (these cams have ~70k miles on them and they look in excellent condition)

HELIX 60.5c, yeah, had to make the guy do the test twice just to make sure. 60.5 is very hard. If all the HELIX cams are about the same hardness, the cam lobe will not wear out.

OD Journals (factory service manual states 1.179-1.1796 for the rear and middle, 1.4939-1.4946 for the front. Oil clearances are .0015-.0028 with a max of .0039 )

OEM WRX rear 1.1794
center 1.1793

R EX. HELIX rear 1.1791
center 1.1789
front 1.493-1.4933

L EX. HELIX rear 1.1785
center 1.1787
front 1.493-1.4934

R IN. HELIX rear 1.1783-1.1784
center 1.1783-1.1784
front 1.4934-1.4933

L IN. HELIX rear 1.1787-1.1785
center 1.1786-1.1787
front 1.4935-1.4934



Even though the HELIX journal was a .0001 under low limit of factory spec, I won't return it. However, the dimensions shown on the HELIX cam leads me to believe that they were manufacturing with looser tolerances then the OEM cam. I will definitely check the others before making the final decision if I keep them or not.

I'm fairly hesitant on using these cams now. Does anyone have any crower/kelford or other aftermarket cams that they could measure the OD journals? I would like to know if all companies are this loose in their manufacturing tolerances.
I have a question on the hardness of the Helix vrs OE?If it is that much harder than OE is there a helix lifter to match there cam?Thanks for the info i caint seem to find much info on Subaru cams or what kind of head work people are doing.Thanks for you post Brad
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Old 09-29-2006, 10:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic rx View Post
hey gary

i think ya dropped out of the open line of communication. email me about swapping helix injectors for the pe 800's we will see if the problem is the injectors. did everything you said ,and still not right. need to figure something out before all hell breaks loose
Hey Sonic, didn't get an e-mail response from you. I think I'm going to have some information to report in the coming days. As for the injectors, I highly doubt they are the injectors, I can get you a set of PE's that I'm having flow tested at RC engineering, complete with flow data. Shoot me another e-mail!

Thanks,

Gary
gary@gruppe-s.com
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Old 09-30-2006, 01:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruppe-S View Post
Hey Sonic, didn't get an e-mail response from you. I think I'm going to have some information to report in the coming days. As for the injectors, I highly doubt they are the injectors, I can get you a set of PE's that I'm having flow tested at RC engineering, complete with flow data. Shoot me another e-mail!

Thanks,

Gary
gary@gruppe-s.com
ok gary i sent ya am email,a pm, and here is what i have found with the hellix injectors

my tuner thinks the injectors are having problems also. my cold start is horrible. i dropped a set of pe650's and it started awsome,but i need 800cc injectors for my setup. looks like they are leaking my # 3 cyl. is wet with gas as is cyl #4 ,and cyl #2 is questionable. the car is sitting,and i would like to be driving it. i would be very intrested in doing the swap
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Old 09-30-2006, 06:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic rx View Post
ok gary i sent ya am email,a pm, and here is what i have found with the hellix injectors

my tuner thinks the injectors are having problems also. my cold start is horrible. i dropped a set of pe650's and it started awsome,but i need 800cc injectors for my setup. looks like they are leaking my # 3 cyl. is wet with gas as is cyl #4 ,and cyl #2 is questionable. the car is sitting,and i would like to be driving it. i would be very intrested in doing the swap
Ok not a problem, I can swap them if you really feel the injectors are the problem, but I just want to let you know that the PE's and Helix's are both made by Denso and are actually based off the same cores, the only differences are minor changes in the internal components. I'm still leaning towards a tuning issue in this case, but I will absolutely swap the injectors for you, I'm waiting for them to come back from flow testing.

Thanks,

Gary
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Old 10-01-2006, 04:01 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruppe-S View Post
Ok not a problem, I can swap them if you really feel the injectors are the problem, but I just want to let you know that the PE's and Helix's are both made by Denso and are actually based off the same cores, the only differences are minor changes in the internal components. I'm still leaning towards a tuning issue in this case, but I will absolutely swap the injectors for you, I'm waiting for them to come back from flow testing.

Thanks,

Gary
Gruppe-S
ok ,but just to note the 2 that are leaking for sure are not a tuning problem. if they sit over night they leak into the cylinder. no tuning can adjust for that. i also am aware that the helix and pe's are made by bosch. i will want to see a flow chart of course. are the pe's new or used?,and what kind of wiat time are you looking at? i will call you on monday
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Old 10-06-2006, 09:03 AM   #25
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A friend that completed a 2.5L Hybrid build with the Helix cams and valve train is having terrible problems now. It appears that the pass side cylinders are not firing. The coil packs are working because one of the spark plugs was pulled out still connected to the coil pack, the car was started and the plug was working. The injector connector was tested for current and it worked. A spare injector was plugged in and it was clicking. Cylinder #3 was disconnected and the car continued to idle horribly...the engine shakes like crazy. Then a cylinder was disconnected on the driver's side and it completely changed the tone of the idle. The same was done on the pass side again and the idle remianed the same.

This leads me to believe that the pass side is not firing to begin with. Strangely enough compresion is 150 all around. If you mess with the coilpack and injectors on the pass side, the car idles perfectly for a brief moment and then goes back to the rough uneven idle. The coil packs were changed and the rough idle remained. The MAF was swapped and it changed nothing. It just seems that for a moment the car idles like it should. Even the injectors on the pass were swapped without success.

To add to the problem, once the car gets into the higher rpms it runs better and in fact it made 323 torque to the wheels with this problem but it was around 4200rpm or something like that. We switched the maps also because we thought it was tune and the problem remained.

I think it's the cams on the pass side that are causing an issue...please HELP.

Thank you.
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FS: sti crank, sti rods, WRX helix cams, supertech valvetrain, stock wrx cams cubuff Engine/Power/Exhaust 20 12-25-2008 04:44 PM
2006 WRX Turbo Combos, Forged internals, Helix Injectors, Helix Cams, & More!!! Gruppe-S Engine/Power/Exhaust 9 08-30-2006 09:30 PM
Helix Injectors, VF22s, VF34s, Helix DPs, Helix Cams, cheap accessories all in stock! Gruppe-S Engine/Power/Exhaust 11 08-29-2006 08:11 PM
Helix Cams back in stock - $519 Shipped! STi Mounts! Cobb APs in stock! Helix DPs! Gruppe-S Engine/Power/Exhaust 3 07-31-2006 06:59 PM
STi Helix Injectors back in stock! Helix Cams for EJ20, built motors, much more! Gruppe-S Engine/Power/Exhaust 32 02-09-2006 04:00 PM


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