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Old 09-06-2007, 10:00 PM   #1
IllNastyImpreza
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Default door pannel speaker grill interfere with SQ ???

ok I'm currently building a set of speaker spacers with a cutout for my 1st set of tweeters. Its placed right next to the speaker to the front of the car...

Now... I angled them to point @ the spot on the window parrallel to my ear.

BUT when looking down @ the speaker grill, it seems the stock grill is rather big and groved. The little "slots" seem to be in the way of the speaker, and look like they would reflect the sound more straight outwards from the door, and not twards my ear.

Do you think the stock speaker grills interfere ???

has anyone replaced them with different speaker grill cloth or other sound "invisible" grill or whatnot ???
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:11 AM   #2
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They might SLIGHTLY. It will depends very much so on what your crossover range on the mids are. In my case mine are crossed at 63hz and 200hz so I'm not getting any reall vocal output from them. If you're crossing in the 1.5k and up range then they might have a bit of reflection in terms of vocals and non bass instruments, and if you're crossing at say 4k then for sure.

You could replace it with some grill coth if you're good in cutting out the ring and building a new trim ring or something along those lines.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:36 AM   #3
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They might SLIGHTLY. ...

You could replace it with some grill coth if you're good in cutting out the ring and building a new trim ring or something along those lines.
yeah... not sure if its worth the trouble yet though. I would not want to acidentaly kick my nice new speaker... I would need to reinforce the cloth with a crossbarr or something...
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:11 PM   #4
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Tweeters are highly directional, and if the plastic is fairly thick and the holes are small (I am unfamiliar with your year model), they will change the direction of the sound, as well as block a lot of it, not to mention hindering sound quality. The holes basically re-aim the speaker straight at your knees. I suggest isolating the speaker closest to you, and listen to it with and without the door panel. I have a hunch a lot of the tweetie will disappear with the panel on.
You might think about moving them up higher in the door panel, flush-mount style. I know the ideal SQ/timing is point-source, or close to it, but if you can't hear it....

Last edited by Audiosavvy; 09-07-2007 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:15 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
They might SLIGHTLY
They block it more than you might think, I see it all the time (in different vehicles)

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Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
You could replace it with some grill coth if you're good in cutting out the ring and building a new trim ring or something along those lines.

Grill cloth would be better, but would still block it a little. Not nearly as much, but the upper ranges (12-20k) will suffer still. The lower tweeter range will not be affected as much.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:34 PM   #6
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hhmm.... I might just end up fabricating them into the kick-pods I am building for the 4'' driver.

I'm running the CDT 4 way ES series...

the 1st tweeter is recomended to be placed as close to the mid drivers as possible...

so I think incorperating it into the kick pannel might be better off anyway


this way the mid-bass (6.5'') driver won't be effected by the stock speaker grill as much anyway, and I can just leave it be...
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:01 PM   #7
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if you are judging coverage looking down on the driver's door panel from the driver's seat... coverage really isn't an issue.. its the opposite side of the car that is important.

If You aimed them up @ the driver's left ear from the driver's side that's a bigger problem than any coverage by the grill... they should be aimed @ the opposite listener's ear, toward the center of the car.

I know I didn't say that right.. celar as mudd... lol

Rob
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:10 PM   #8
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If You aimed them up @ the driver's left ear from the driver's side that's a bigger problem than any coverage by the grill... they should be aimed @ the opposite listener's ear, toward the center of the car.
That's a good point. In order to get proper imaging with the driver side tweet aimed at your head , you have to have the driver MID aimed as such, or at least relative to the tweeter. And even then, time correction will be needed to delay the closer speakers (driver side) to hit your ears at the same time as the passenger doors. If you are doing a high-end 4-way as you said, these are definitely things to think about. If you are not going that crazy, you still want to get some out of the driver's tweet, and the better it works off-axis, the more toward the center of the car it should be aimed.
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Old 09-07-2007, 02:23 PM   #9
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He's not doing a real 4-way based on what he described though it sounds. It sounds like he's running two pairs of tweets...a standard tweet and then a "stage" tweet that'll probably just cover like 14khz and up.

On the aiming side of things We can give him suggestions all over the place but there is no way to tell him what it's going to sound like until he gets them in the area he wants them to be in and then plays with positioning. Since you're asking about tweeters you can easily just double side tape them in place or hot glue them in place so you can easily move them around here and there. If you're going to attach it to the mid spacer I will have a way for you to adjust aiming (at least in one axis) that I can show you in a couple of hours...need to build it and snap some pics.

Oh, BTW i missed that he was referring to a tweeter in the beginning. I'm a noob too sometimes
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Old 09-07-2007, 03:05 PM   #10
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The dual-tweeter thing always freaks me out..

primary tweeter MUST be immediatly adjacent to the primary mid its work with... you can time delay/trick all you want.. it simply won't work.

Back in the day when the Car Audio companies did REAL training seminars & such, the rule/theory was "1/2 the diameter of the woofer for max distance from the woofer's centerline." & "both drivers should be on the same plane" in other words. Tweeter should be no more that 2.625" (5.25" woofer) or 3.25" (on a 6.5") away from the center of the woofer & mounted on the same panel.

Tweeter aiming is to help over come flat on the door mounting requirements. & can distupt the on axis sound & effect the blend between the oofer & tweeter on & off axis... just goes with the territory of getting sound in the car.

A 2nd tweeter up high (door, dash, pillar a/c vent etc) as a super tweeter (10k+ is great for added splash or shimmer.. but all too often they draw the image & stage all over the place.. I have found a super tweeter set up nearly always needs some sort of attentuation (gain, l-pad, resistor).

I guess it really depends on how perfectly (cose to) you want the car to image & stage.

My 323gt has Alpine SPX 6.5/tweets & sounds great... but does exactly "image or stage" perfectly.. but in my daily drivers I have learned to accept the trade off.. I just cant bring myself to do kicks in the tight footwells with a manual trans cars.

Rob
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Old 09-07-2007, 05:32 PM   #11
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The dual-tweeter thing always freaks me out..

primary tweeter MUST be immediatly adjacent to the primary mid its work with... you can time delay/trick all you want.. it simply won't work.
It totally depends on what your crossovers are set at. if you cross you woofer really low...say 200hz you can put a mid/tweet really far off and not throw off imaging and cause localization.

From some of the reading I've been doing in terms of human ear and perception these are some basic rules

50hz or less can't distinguish and location
50-200hz can distinguish front/rear and left/right but not up/down
above 200hz can distinguish all directions.

So if you run a real 3-way or 4-way setup (or some of those crazy mid/tweet drivers from Dynaudio) as long as you keep your mid/tweet really close to one another and keep it with a low crossover point you'll be fine putting them quite a bit of distance away from the mid woofer.

Two sets of tweeters though...shoot me in the face
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Old 09-07-2007, 05:42 PM   #12
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I probably should have specified that primarily with packaged coponents sets & their passive networks &/or (as you said) depending on your active set up... as a disclaimer... lol

Since 99% of the people out there are using packaged sets.. the theory is largely valid... but you're right... if you gap the crossover points to smooth responses etc.. that's way above the general conversation or point I was making...

I'm really diggin this group... everyone is concerned about getting the info out & getting it correct with out attacking each other... who'd a thought?!

LOL

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Old 09-07-2007, 06:05 PM   #13
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I'm really diggin this group... everyone is concerned about getting the info out & getting it correct with out attacking each other... who'd a thought?!
See, we can play nice once in a while (of course there times we don't all get along).

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Old 09-07-2007, 06:45 PM   #14
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See, we can play nice once in a while (of course there times we don't all get along).

offset

There are certainly those times, but that's when we learn things. I was actually thinkin the same thing though DFDub, I really enjoy talking to you guys, especially Daishi, LastResort, and Offset, because it seems we all have our strong points, and we all are here to help, not have a pissing contest. By the way, how you guys been, it's been a while since I got to play in the Car Audio playground?
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:28 PM   #15
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See, we can play nice once in a while (of course there times we don't all get along).

offset
Especially when V6 is around

For those of you who don't know V6 be thankful

DF - You're absolutely correct that for a passive system for most prepackaged components keeping the tweet near the mid is optimal to try and equalize path lengths and avoid localization. I don't think I've ever seen a prepackaged component set with a small enough gap between the mid and tweet to really do the whole a-pillar/door deal, which is a shame.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:41 PM   #16
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Dash... the ONLY component systems I have seen that "kinda" offer gapping are the original Alpine SPX's, some of Dynaudio's, & some of the Eclipse higher end stuff from 2000-2001.

I've fought "average" & lots of "below average" (Boston Pro, pretty much all a/d/s.. I could go on) passive networks. In my 323gt I have the luxury of the SPX's so I can go high on the door with my tweeter & get some stage height, but that's all alot OVER the top for this conversation... lol

I wish I could find a common thread among excellent tweeters & mids (spec wise) that would reveal that they were perfect for each other,,, I've struggled for years with "is there a spec or combination of specs that earn you a sweet spot w/o an insanely complex crossover"... LOl

rob
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:04 PM   #17
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DIYMA does tons of tests of mids, woofers and tweeters and has their specs up so you can see where you can match stuff and whatnot. The problem though is that they do more home audio and not the "good" car audio drivers that often so it makes it a bit harder to put something together. I put together a nice little 2-way active for a friend of mine with a Dayton 7" mid and a Seas Neo tweeter. Cost about $100 for the whole set
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:55 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFWrxWagon View Post
The dual-tweeter thing always freaks me out..
... I have found a super tweeter set up nearly always needs some sort of attentuation (gain, l-pad, resistor).

I guess it really depends on how perfectly (cose to) you want the car to image & stage.
...
Rob
Dallas
yeah the ES 4 way comes with an upstage attenuation knob for the "super tweeters". Its also got the hex-5000 system coordinator, which has many different jumpers for reversing phase, setting between 3 and 4 way, and leveling and such. Its probably the most "dummy proof" higher end system out there... I mean come on, how can you possible **** this one up ???
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